A Beginner’s Guide to Herbalism and Magical Practice
This episode is for folks looking to get into working with plants – or deepen your relationship if you already are working with them. It is part of an ongoing series on getting started in spirituality.
This episode living with the world through herbalism, ancestry, and the lands we live on. Exploring how plants can reconnect us to both our roots and our present communities. Sarah and Andrew set the stage to build a deep connection to the natural world. Revisiting a podcast favourite animism — the understanding that all beings, including plants, are alive and spirited—and how this worldview reshapes herbal practice beyond simple “symptom and remedy” thinking.
Sarah shares her journey into herbalism through chronic illness, finding relief with common plantain, and discovering herbalism as both a clinical path and a spiritual, relational practice. They discuss herbal ancestors. Sharing thoughts on how family recipes, kitchen spices, and everyday food rituals can be doorways into remembering ancestral plant traditions.
The conversation also highlights the responsibilities of practicing herbalism on Indigenous land, emphasizing relational approaches, learning local histories and treaties, and supporting Indigenous-led stewardship.
For listeners wanting to begin or deepen their plant work—whether medicinal or magical—the episode offers practical guidance: start with the plants where you live, build long-term relationships over seasons, learning to listen to your body , and allowing plants to teach through direct experience.
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Please share widely.
~ Andrew
Episode 134 transcript
Andrew McGregor (00:01)
Hey folks, welcome to 2026. What a wild place we live in. What a wild year. I feel like we need magic, spirituality and community more than ever to help us find our way through these trying times. This episode with ⁓ Sarah from Rowan Sage was recorded last year and I’m just getting around to getting it out now. You should definitely go follow them. are an astounding human being doing really great.
⁓ conscious and intentional work in the world. You should also check out Amir El-Safar who ⁓ most graciously made this music for me for the podcast. And while you’re at it, feel free to send some love my way. Follow the podcast, share the podcast or from pretty much wherever you are, unfortunately, except for the US, ⁓ shop online for my store. I’ll send stuff out to you. And hopefully ⁓ mid winter,
2026, we will get this shipping across the border business sorted and you can check that out too. All right. Podcasts available everywhere. Enjoy the rest of the show.
Andrew McGregor (01:50)
Welcome to episode 134 of the podcast. Today I am here with Sarah, better known online as Rowan and Sage, although perhaps a bit less online these days. I have been following her work for quite some time and admire their knowledge and integrity around these things. And today we’re going to have a conversation about how to get started working with plants. We’re going to cover some of
how that works if you’re looking from a more herbal point of view and how some of that works if you’re looking from a more ⁓ spiritual or magical point of view. But for folks who don’t know you yet, Sarah, why don’t you give us ⁓ the quick introduction.
Sarah Corbett (02:32)
Yeah, thanks so much for having me here today. I’m excited to talk about this with you. Yeah, my name is Sarah. I’m the lead herbalist and the founder of Rowan and Sage, which is a small batch apothecary based here in Atlanta, Georgia, and also online community herbalism school. ⁓ We opened in 2017. So we just entered our, we just began a couple weeks ago, our ninth year of business, which I’m really excited about. It’s been really interesting to look back on nine years of
like outward facing professional practice and then also just contemplate my own herbal journey over the last almost.
15 years, has it been 15 years? Yeah, just about. ⁓ As I’ve been studying herbalism and practicing herbalism. So a lot of what I do these days is teach, like you’re catching me on a day where I’ve been working on a like 65 page document of herbal therapeutics education for my students. But what I’m really passionate about as a clinical herbalist, as an herbal educator, as an herbal product maker, is really helping people connect
Andrew McGregor (03:14)
time flies.
Sarah Corbett (03:40)
with plants and connect with nature and recognize that they are parts of nature and like even though you know I spend most of my day talking about like the chemical constituents in a plant, really like my secret mission is to animism pill everyone around me.
Not that I’m proselytizing animism, but to really ⁓ help people connect with the wider world and the spiritual world through herbs as kind of like a doorway into that relationship. So the herbalism that I practice is really relational, ⁓ which is not entirely unique to me, but it’s definitely not like the common paradigm of Western herbalism.
Andrew McGregor (04:21)
Yeah, and just in case folks are coming across this word animism for the first time, I think the simplest way to describe it would be animism believes that ⁓ all things are animated by spirits or inhabited by their own spirits and that through practice, whatever practices, one can ⁓ connect to them, build a relationship with them and have dialogue with them.
in one way or another. Does that sound like an okay general description?
Sarah Corbett (04:54)
Yeah, I mean, it’s the way I usually describe it. It’s just like you said, like all things are alive and imbued with spirit. And that is regardless of our human needs or preferences. Like they are their own quote unquote people. They have their own agendas, their own desires and dislikes and likes, their own communities, their own forms of communication within those communities too. And animism is the oldest worldview among humans. It doesn’t originate from any particular place or time. It’s everywhere. All of our ancestors
ancestors
were at some point animists. And perhaps that was a survival strategy, you know, you have to see yourself as part of the wider whole in order to survive as a species. like that’s, this disconnection from animism is certainly something we’re seeing a lot now and a lot of the like ecological crises, the climate disaster, etc. ⁓
we can really see being impacted by this loss of connection to nature and this loss of recognition as nature is very much alive. Of course, there are indigenous communities that still recognize this personhood of waterways, mountains, trees, plants, et cetera. ⁓ But yes, animism and this idea that we can be in relationship with other people, other non-human people.
is a real like cornerstone of my worldview and my practice as an herbalist.
Andrew McGregor (06:18)
Yeah, absolutely. So let me just start with what got you into herbalism to begin with? How did that start for you?
Sarah Corbett (06:26)
Like a lot of people on the herbal path, I got really chronically ill when I was a teenager and then I just never got better and…
like most of the people who end up at my desk in clinical capacity, I had gone to every doctor, I’d been to every specialist, I’d had all sorts of invasive testing done and we couldn’t find an answer. And so like the last resort was ⁓ my parents took me to a naturopath who is a doctor of Chinese medicine and an acupuncturist. ⁓
and he put me on all of these different formulas. Some were Chinese formulas, some were like a blend of Chinese and Western, quote unquote Western, herbs.
And one of the herbs in that formula was plantago major, common plantain. And I was like starting to forage at the time, I was primarily focusing on learning about mushrooms and like wild berries. But of course, I learned about plantain in my foraging studies. And it was like growing directly underneath the window of my bedroom, and all across my backyard. And so I started making teas out of this plant because I figured it was safe for me because it was in this formula I was already taking.
and I experienced so much relief. ⁓ And as I sat at Dr. Anderson’s desk, I was like, ⁓ crap, like, I could do this for a living. I could be this guy. I could help people with plants, which is something that I love. I’ve always been like a freaky little nature girl. At the time I was in an FFA program for horticulture at my high school too, ⁓ which really got me into plants. Thank you, Mr. Green, my horticulture teacher.
Andrew McGregor (08:09)
Perfect name.
Sarah Corbett (08:10)
He’s great. ⁓ And I was just like, hyper focused on becoming an herbalist. It was the thing that I finally figured out what I wanted to do when I grew up. And so I pursued it from then on.
Andrew McGregor (08:23)
Mm-hmm.
That’s awesome. Yeah, for me, you know, I mean, I spent my ⁓ childhood years and into my early teens and sort of small town, southern Ontario, and most of it in the woods, like anytime we just go out in the woods and do whatever it was the 80s, they’re just like, come home before it’s dark, right? And you know, I really
built an affinity for nature and connection to nature. And as I got more and more into sort of Western ceremonial traditions, then through incense and associations and kind of that magical view, I started connecting more and more. And then over time, I sort of drift in and around more herbal stuff, but always in a really low key wave.
You know, I’m like, at some point I’m going to maybe do some more formal training around this, ⁓ which has always followed up in all my free time, which is non-existent. So, you know, we’ll see. Yep.
Sarah Corbett (09:29)
Right. Yeah,
I mean getting like a formal herbal training my f-
formal formal because right like in the US and in Canada, we have no pathways for licensure. So there are a couple of like actually college accredited programs out there, but they’re few and far between. ⁓ So my formal training costs more than my undergraduate education. And it’ll be more I’m starting my master’s program in January, it’ll be more than my undergrad and my master’s combined just to become a clinical herbalist. And part of like part of that is just because
Andrew McGregor (09:59)
Right.
Sarah Corbett (10:04)
I am obsessed and I love learning and I’m like always enrolled in a program. I would have, I would be a professional academic if academia wasn’t like such a terrible place to be all the time. ⁓
But when I first got into herbalism, at the same time, I was exposed to like magical traditions. And of course, all of us are often exposed first to like Wicca. So I was picking up a lot of that at that time. ⁓
I quickly figured out that that was not for me. And I was like learning about astrology at the same time. So while I ended up taking kind of a clinical route with my herbal practice, it was still heavily influenced by this magical animistic worldview. It kind of like sprouted all for me at the same time. I just ended up going more of the clinical route because of my experience of being chronically ill and because my parents, like most immigrant first generation American kids, I had the option
Andrew McGregor (10:51)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Corbett (11:07)
to become a doctor, lawyer, and engineer. And they said, you’re going to college, you’re getting a bachelor’s in science. And so I ended up getting a premed degree.
And that really set up like the foundations for my clinical understanding of herbs and the body. But if I hadn’t had to go to college, then I might have taken a totally different path. I don’t know.
Andrew McGregor (11:28)
Hmm.
Yeah, makes sense to me. I think that, you know, maybe the starting point we could start with for sort of recommending where people start. I think your story about the plantain is really on point, right? You know, I think that for folks, at least in my experience, for folks who are looking to understand plants and work with plants,
looking around where you are is a really great place to start, right?
Sarah Corbett (12:11)
Yeah, I mean you’ll see videos on social media, I just saw one the other day when I was like mindlessly scrolling on my private Facebook account, ⁓ where a guy was just saying, you if I had to pick 10 herbs, these are the ones that I would absolutely choose for beginners. And like I think that’s a sound strategy sometimes, but really if someone asked me what are 10 herbs I need in my apothecary, I’d be like, well what are 10 herbs growing in your backyard? Or like in a place near to you. ⁓
because what is close to you, like you’re going to have, I would imagine, because you’re much farther north than me, a lot of conifers that I would never have access to. ⁓ And like that would might be a huge cornerstone of your apothecary while like I might be working with more prairie meadow plants that maybe you don’t have access to except for a very small window of the year. I think it is so much more effective for people to look around first and also think about the plants that speak
to them. All of us have like a favorite tree or a favorite flower or a favorite spice, seeing if that plant offers something medicinal or maybe you’re like a mushroom person looking in all fungi that are edible are medicinal. ⁓ Picking one plant that either you eat regularly or you love every time you walk past this one oak tree in the park or something, learning about them. ⁓
I think it’s the best first step you can take.
Andrew McGregor (13:41)
Yeah,
I agree. And I think that, you know, there’s kind of like multiple levels to learning about a plant, right? There’s there’s a body of herbal medicinal knowledge. There’s a body of spiritual knowledge, depending on tradition and, and folks and so on in your area. And then I think there’s also, you know,
The specific specific plant, you know, especially with trees and other longer-lived things You know, there’s one horse chestnut tree that is my best bud. It’s not all of them It’s not anywhere else just that one, you know And you know, and I think that’s where that animism piece kind of rolls into the conversation too, right?
Sarah Corbett (14:23)
Just that one guy. ⁓
Right,
I mean, you can connect with like the spirit of a plant family. You can connect with the spirit of a plant species, you can connect with the individual spirit of the plant in front of you. There’s definitely levels to that. And a lot of the like significations people will say, especially when it comes to magic.
with different herbs might be completely different than what the relationship like what the plant that you have a relationship has told you. ⁓ Something I’m sure we’ll talk about more here today. But yeah, there’s so much information to learn about a plant. ⁓ And
Like as herbalists, especially, we are working off of a multi-thousand year canon that stretches all across the globe of knowledge about how plants work, how they can support us. And then that is only being further developed and influenced by clinical research that tells us what chemical constituents are responsible for a certain mechanism of action in a plant and how plants produce their medicine. ⁓
in the first place at all.
Andrew McGregor (15:46)
Yeah. Well, there’s one point I want to touch on before we sort of move a little further along to right is I think that for me, and I’m going to put this to you as a question. But you know, what what is the what is the relationship for you to land to the plants and, you know, to considerations about the indigenous folks?
in in the land on the land where where you are where other people might find themselves i know right sorry
Sarah Corbett (16:19)
That’s a huge question. ⁓ I
will ground that in, you know, where I live now is ceded Muskogee territory, though that, like, it was legally ceded, but under pressure and duress and the Treaty of Indian Springs here was such a raw deal that, like, the indigenous elders…
executed the chief who signed that into law and went to the president of the United States at the time. I want to say it was Adams. I have to double check. ⁓ Went to him to negotiate a new treaty and they agreed to negotiate a new treaty, came back to Georgia, and the governor of Georgia refused. And then Andrew Jackson ⁓
campaign against indigenous people and the Forced Indian Removal Act is what led to the Trail of Tears, which the understanding of the trail…I grew up adjacent to the Trail of Tears, right in between Cherokee and Muskogee territory, and living with the backdrop of this knowledge while also living in a place that was completely burned to the ground by General Sherman, ⁓ the history of this land was ever present.
throughout my entire childhood and adulthood and the scars of colonization in this land are so apparent to me as a plant person. We live in a really unique bio region where we’re in between, we’re on a plateau.
basically beneath the mountains. And so we’re in this kind of transitional space of plant species for where we are, where we have some southern Appalachian plants that have their own histories of being used by indigenous communities and then exploited by colonists to the point of like near extinction for some of those species now. But we also have so many unique species to our area. And you can just walk through places and see how colonization has shifted
those landscapes. And as a plant person who’s been on this path for half my life, ⁓ I can see just within the last even few years how colonization and climate change is impacting plant species and different landscapes that like I’ve been tending to for over a decade. ⁓ So I will say
Andrew McGregor (18:43)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Corbett (18:50)
I grew up with the knowledge of who the indigenous people were here, but here it’s very difficult to…
Andrew McGregor (18:56)
Hmm.
Sarah Corbett (19:05)
And like it’s very not well known how to like connect with Muskogee knowledge of plants here. There’s very few resources out there, which you know, the tribe has every right to keep that knowledge to themselves. But some indigenous peoples across the US and Canada have like published books.
Andrew McGregor (19:13)
Mm-hmm.
for sure.
Sarah Corbett (19:27)
on their websites or resources or have papers or ethnopotentical papers that were written by members of the tribe that share plant use and knowledge and spiritual significances and preparation methods and things like that. I have not really been able to find that for the Muskogee. ⁓ So while I do my best to honor them and their connection to this land,
Andrew McGregor (19:42)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Corbett (19:55)
There’s so much that I still want to learn and that I’m trying to find and learn.
Andrew McGregor (20:00)
Mm.
Sarah Corbett (20:00)
and it’s an ongoing process for me. Where I grew up, which is mostly Cherokee land, it’s very, very easy to find knowledge about Cherokee medicine. They’ve worked really hard in their community to preserve their language among their people and to preserve this knowledge, and they’ve made it quite accessible to outsiders. But I might not ever have access to Muskogee teachings on plants here, and that is okay, too.
Andrew McGregor (20:24)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Corbett (20:30)
⁓ if that’s how they would prefer that to be.
Andrew McGregor (20:31)
Yeah,
yeah, I think the the key thing that I would sort of highlight from your approach is, you know, I think that pretty much all indigenous teachings are relational, right? You know, I mean, some some some things are maybe more published and more out there now. But so many. ⁓ If if you’re if you’re on
Indigenous land and we’re pretty much everybody listening to this is on Indigenous land. Learning about the history, learning about the, you know, start by reading one of the treaties for your area, you know, and, and understand that, you know, there, there is a relationship that may or may not happen there, you know, with those, with those communities and those folks, and that’s entirely on their side.
you know, and like their decision and should be respected. And, you know, I think for me, the longer I sort of, you know, continue along my journey, you know, really, you know, I don’t want to talk about my what I do as such, because I don’t think it’s beneficial per se. But you know, looking for opportunities to provide support, have relationship, build a point of connection.
you know, and see what those are and go from there. I think it’s really important. ⁓
Sarah Corbett (22:02)
I agree.
And even if that form of support is only just like being able to make reparations through donations, ⁓ which different tribes have set up in different ways, supporting indigenous led efforts. ⁓ Like here in Georgia, we have an area ⁓
around the Okomulgee Mounds, which is like one of the most biodiverse regions in the southeast, and working to preserve that is something that has been led by Indigenous land stewards for decades. And there are like all sorts of different biodiversity initiatives to maintain these wild spaces. ⁓ And helping to advocate without getting in the way, advocate for these Indigenous leaders to be able to be part of these initiatives. ⁓ And
to advocate for them to have a voice if they don’t already, I think is a powerful thing that can be done. But also for me as a first generation, I’m mixed. My dad’s American, my mom’s not. I mean, she is now, but ⁓ I’m the first generation of my family to be born here. So as a descendant of refugees, I also have a different relationship with this land than I think some white herbalists do.
And a lot of my work and my own practice is also re-rooting into my, what would have been my indigenous lands, our cosmologies, our plant practices, our cultural knowledge. And like, as you said, like in most communities, this knowledge is relational. It’s shared from elders to the younger generation. It’s shared through families. It’s shared through story. It’s shared through recipes.
Andrew McGregor (23:51)
Hmm.
Sarah Corbett (23:52)
and things that you wouldn’t maybe consider like herbalism but totally are. A lot of my work in like my personal practice and my research is focused more on my mom’s lineage and my family on that side and understanding where we come from and also how so many of the plants that are considered quote-unquote Western aren’t at all. They’re really from the Middle East and Asia.
Andrew McGregor (24:19)
yeah
Sarah Corbett (24:21)
and so much of what white American herbalist practice is already appropriated, not only from Indigenous people, ⁓ but from every other community in the world too.
Andrew McGregor (24:27)
for sure.
Yeah, for
sure. Yeah, I think the last thing maybe that I might like to add to this particular part of it is ⁓ if you are somewhere where you have the option or you have the opportunity to spend time around an elder, whether that’s go and see them speak.
You know, if they’re they’re doing a powwow or some other kind of thing in your part of the globe or, know, elders from other traditions around the world come to visit for some reason or other. Even just being in the room with an elder is is a blessing and is something that can, I think, foster many levels of understanding, even if they’re only talking about things that aren’t related to plants.
overtly or whatever. Just being in the room with them is amazing.
Sarah Corbett (25:33)
Well, and regardless of your background, spend time cataloging the stories and recipes of your own familial elders and your community elders. things that you can glean from an herbal perspective is ask your grandparents, your great-grandparents, if you’re lucky to have them alive still, what herbs and spices they love to cook with. ⁓
Andrew McGregor (25:41)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Corbett (25:59)
ask, see if you can go through family recipes and just like look for an herb or a spice in a recipe and try to figure out why it’s there. Try to figure out if it’s just a flavor thing or a lot of what I have figured out with my own family recipes is some of the herbs and spices and cooking methods we use is to prevent like foodborne illness, which would have been something so important in Central Asia before the advent of refrigeration. ⁓
Andrew McGregor (26:23)
for sure.
Sarah Corbett (26:25)
Food preservation methods can tell you a lot about food and herbal culture. The order of which someone eats a meal, you know, that like bitter green side salad before a meal is actually herbal, like kitchen herbalism. Having a warm cup of spiced tea after a meal is kitchen herbalism. And you can glean a lot from your elders, even if they’re not herbalists, like if they would never describe themselves that way. You can learn a lot about your cultural traditions.
Andrew McGregor (26:39)
huh.
Sarah Corbett (26:55)
just talking to them and observing them. ⁓ Some people are more lucky, like I would say growing up with my grandparents who are from Central Asia is really different than talking to my grandparents on my dad’s side, but we all can like gather this information and preserve it.
Andrew McGregor (27:12)
for sure.
Yeah.
I drank too much coffee and I got run into the bathroom. Sorry. I over hydrated. I’ll be right back.
Sarah Corbett (27:22)
Great. Yeah,
sounds good.
you
Andrew McGregor (30:06)
I was starting to sit there with my legs crossed. I’m like, I’m not going to make it to the end without taking a break. ⁓ Yeah, let’s jump back in there. So ⁓ yeah, I’m going to just start. You ready? I really love that idea of connecting with your family and.
Sarah Corbett (30:08)
No worries. No worries.
Andrew McGregor (30:30)
digging into those roots, you know? mean, I think that’s ⁓ another kind of ⁓ place to connect, right? To understand where we’re from, what we do, what people before us did, you know, on all those levels.
Sarah Corbett (30:48)
and how we
got here, you know? Like all of us have herbal culture, all of us have ancestors who used herbs, otherwise you would not be born. Like your ancestors would not have survived long enough to eventually produce you.
Andrew McGregor (31:05)
Mm-hmm, for
sure.
Sarah Corbett (31:06)
⁓ And well, I think it’s really incredible and so needed for herbalists of all levels to learn cross-cultural perspectives, which is like the primary lens through which I teach. ⁓ We shouldn’t just learn about what our ancestors used, you know? And we should not only just use what our ancestors used because that might not be appropriate for a variety of reasons, including where we live now. ⁓ But…
you can find so much like belonging and connection and care, I think, through connecting with some of the plants that carried your people for hundreds, thousands of years, for generations. ⁓ And for me personally, some of the plants of my people, when I imbibe them, I feel
Andrew McGregor (31:48)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Corbett (31:57)
so much. I think a lot of us especially who come from colonized communities or who are immigrants who are displaced people
We tend to carry so much of our ancestors pain and shame and difficulty. A lot of that is passed through our direct living family’s experience. ⁓ Being othered in a place that you have been forcibly displaced to is ever present for us. ⁓ Tasting plants.
Andrew McGregor (32:13)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Corbett (32:33)
that are delicious and delightful and healing, I feel like for me connects me to not just my, like it reframes my perspective and my connection to my family and my ancestors and connects me to their joy and their pleasure and the things that helped them thrive and not just like scrape by through life. So I think all of us ⁓ like immigrant third culture kids carry
Andrew McGregor (32:45)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sarah Corbett (33:02)
these stories of resilience, there surely must be more than just always having to be resilient. And a lot of herbs that I’ve had the pleasure of connecting to really helped me connect to joy, which is just like not often an embodied feeling when you live in a society that’s constantly othering you.
Andrew McGregor (33:08)
Mm-hmm.
Mm Yeah,
for sure. So important. Mm hmm. Yeah, I just wanna almost pause for a second and just let that sit there, you know.
Sarah Corbett (33:35)
Yeah, it’s what makes the work healing beyond just a chemical constituent in a plant. know, like how many of my ancestors have had a cup of cardamom and saffron tea after dinner, you know? ⁓ Or just a cup of green tea or…
Andrew McGregor (33:45)
Mm-hmm, for sure.
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Corbett (34:02)
spiced their meals with fragrant cumin and onions and all of these things that maybe weren’t necessary to the dish, you know, you could just eat rice, but they made it something more.
I remember the first time I took a cardamom extract, I was like, holy shit, this is so delicious. I felt like every cell in my body light up in a way that was familiar, but not familiar to me, but familiar to something within me. ⁓
Andrew McGregor (34:24)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Well, I think maybe that’s also a thing to to maybe highlight just a little bit, right? Really notice how your body responds to things. You know, like there are there are things that I eat and you know, things that you eat and we all eat that we have responses to on so many levels, you know, and if you’re if you’re present with that.
What a way to connect more, right? To feel that feedback on some level and whether your perception is like, you know, don’t know, whenever eat gochujang, I’m always just like, yeah, let’s go, right? Like, it’s like coffee for me, right? Yeah.
Sarah Corbett (35:04)
Yeah.
Well, some of those things could be constitutional factors, as some
herbalists would say. But yeah, like food and herbs is so much more than nourishment or healing constituents, you know. It’s connection, it’s community.
Andrew McGregor (35:30)
Yeah.
Yeah. And you know, and look, you know, notice those things and then take that as a point of expansion into do a little research on the herbal side, do a little research. Is there a more metaphysical side that you can find out about? Right? Like it’s such a such a powerful starting point, I think, you know? Yeah.
Well, so what about, you know, folks who are on the magical side? What do you say to them? Where do they start?
Sarah Corbett (36:06)
I mean, a lot of these things ring true for however you’re approaching plants. I do think when most people talk about magical herbalism, they talk about it through a lens of extraction.
And what do I mean by that is people say, you know, what herb is good for this? And they do the same thing with medical herbalism, you know, they’re like, what herbs are good for tummy aches? Okay, well, that’s like a list of 500. We got to narrow this down some. I don’t think it’s necessarily appropriate to just like create a list.
Andrew McGregor (36:31)
Yeah.
Sarah Corbett (36:39)
that ignores like the nuances and personalities of specific plants. And the same thing happens in magical herbalism, where it’s like, I use rose for love spells and yarrow for protection and boundaries and rosemary for enhancing, like whatever it is, people just do this like one to one vibe, or they make these correspondence lists with like no explanation of how they arrive to those correspondences, if they’re culturally rooted, if they’re like connected to practices that have been carried forth through a linear
Andrew McGregor (36:45)
Mm-hmm.
Mm hmm. Sure.
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Corbett (37:09)
age or whatever. And so my thing with magical herbalism is the same. Pick a plant that grows around you that you can spend time with every day for like months to years. And this is the part people don’t like because they’re always like, how do I build a relationship with a plant? Well, like, how did you build a relationship with your partner, or your best friend or your cat?
Andrew McGregor (37:19)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Corbett (37:33)
you’ve like spent time with them repeatedly over long periods with consistent, genuine engagement. And people will say, well, how do I talk to a plant? It’s not the same. It’s like…
Andrew McGregor (37:36)
Yeah.
Sarah Corbett (37:49)
dating a partner, you know, like I can talk to human beings and I say again, like how did you build a relationship with your pet? Because they can’t talk to you either, not really. And some, yeah, and you can do the same thing with plants, you you see a plant and you see that maybe it’s struggling, okay, like it’s leaves are mottled and they’re not supposed to be and it’s got brown spots on it, it looks like it’s like infested with something. And so you look up that plant, how does that plant prefer to grow? Maybe you find out that it’s planted
Andrew McGregor (37:56)
I feed them and they love me. That’s the… that’s the… Exactly. ⁓
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Corbett (38:19)
in the totally wrong place. Like, you’ve got a lavender bush in a swampy area of your yard. It’s gonna die. It hates that. That is not where lavender wants to be. They want to be on the dry cliffs of the Mediterranean Sea.
Andrew McGregor (38:27)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Corbett (38:37)
⁓ So you might see, I need to move this plant to a place that’s better for it. The plant comes alive again. You notice this plant’s too dry, this plant’s too wet, this plant needs this nourishment and this specific nutrient, this plant needs more sun, this plant needs less sun, and you help it get its needs met.
Andrew McGregor (38:55)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Corbett (38:58)
And like, I promise that throughout that experience of sitting with that plant and tending to them and paying attention to them in such a like finely tuned way, you’re gonna learn other things about them.
Andrew McGregor (39:08)
Yeah,
think that it’s also really helpful to have a relationship that’s long enough that you can see the seasonal cycles of it. You know, I mean, especially especially up here, you know, where we have a well theoretical four season, kind of kind of more like ⁓ two long seasons with sort of mushy short middles now. But, ⁓ you know, but yeah, like, you know, what does it do in the winter?
Sarah Corbett (39:20)
Yes, absolutely.
Andrew McGregor (39:37)
What do these leaves look like when they change? You know, do they fall right? What? ⁓ And what else in that, you know, from a magical point of view, for me, one of the things has been very beneficial is also noticing who else interacts with this plant, you know, so sitting sitting under, ⁓ you know, whatever the the
Sarah Corbett (39:55)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew McGregor (40:06)
the horse chestnut tree and noticing which birds come and go which ones don’t right seeing what’s going on there you know that kind of stuff I think it’s
you know, really helpful, right? Looking at the one of my, one of my personal friends is a black locust, you know, and just seeing how much the red wing blackbirds spend time in that tree where I was all the time. And because I’m also friends with those birds, then more things start to unfold, right? And it’s just about that, as you say, that noticing that being present and the process of time.
Sarah Corbett (40:17)
Absolutely.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Andrew McGregor (40:44)
And then potentially at some point you’ll be hanging out there and they’ll be like, Hey, Andrew, how about we do this together? I’d be like, cool, man. That’s pretty cool. Right. I’d like to do that. That sounds fun. I’d like to work with you in that way.
Sarah Corbett (40:58)
And really,
to get to that point of like a plant speaking to you, you have to cultivate a sense of openness. Like you might be totally skeptical of a plant actually being able to speak to you. ⁓
and you might be like, am I hearing voices or am I hearing planned spirits? You know, that’s often a question that beginners are asking. So you have to like suspend your disbelief, cultivate a sense of full openness to whatever might arise and also be open to receiving messages that maybe seem unconventional like…
Andrew McGregor (41:21)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sarah Corbett (41:34)
You might receive dreams of a particular plant or you doing something or seeing someone do something with a particular plant. You might just come across a piece of writing or poetry that mentions this plant and there’s a message in that literature that teaches you something about their beingness. You might notice something that’s very common among herbalists is…
Andrew McGregor (41:52)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Corbett (42:02)
We can almost like predict what’s going to happen soon for someone in their health, depending on plants that randomly show up around them and that show up in massive abundance. ⁓
Andrew McGregor (42:13)
Hmm.
Sarah Corbett (42:22)
like the year before COVID hit and I’m not saying that I like predicted COVID or anything because that would be ridiculous but there was more mullin growing here than I…
Andrew McGregor (42:29)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Corbett (42:33)
ever seen in particular landscapes that I’ve been attending to for 10 years. You know, like, I’ve been watching how they grow and nothing had changed in their landscape. Like something like Mullen tends to colonize areas that have been just deforested. Mullen seeds can live in the soil for 100 years. That’s why they’re, for many reasons, they’re a plant of Saturn. ⁓ But this area had been the same. ⁓
Andrew McGregor (42:34)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Corbett (42:59)
The whole time I’ve lived here for 12 years and then all of a sudden one year it was just like miles of mullin and I thought, wow, maybe I’m gonna need this plant soon. And then for people who don’t know, like mullin is a respiratory tonic. ⁓ even just this year, I grew some alley campaign at my allotment.
Andrew McGregor (43:00)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Bop-bop.
Sarah Corbett (43:28)
and I cut off a bunch of the stalks so it wouldn’t go to sea but clearly I missed some because there’s like thousands of Ellicampagne babies that I’m not gonna have to remove or transplant and Ellicampagne is another respiratory herb but also one of its significations is deep grief which grief in many different traditional medicine systems tends to like occupy the lungs and ⁓
Also this feeling of like homesickness and not belonging and feeling exiled. And those different emotions are things that are coming up very presently in my life, in this period of my life. And I was just, I was like weeping in my allotment over these things and then I just see thousands of Ellie campaign babies everywhere and I was like,
Andrew McGregor (44:22)
Okay,
okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think, I think that’s definitely how it goes. Right. And it does. You know, it requires, as you say, being open, being present. You know, I have ⁓ a very long standing relationship with Burdock now, you know, and, you know, it’s it’s interesting.
Sarah Corbett (44:24)
Guess I need grief medicine.
Andrew McGregor (44:50)
because it kind of leads to a notion that I have, is, you know, ⁓ trust but verify, you know, depending on what you’re doing with these things, you know, number one, I think it’s if you make a connection with a plant, just sit with that connection. I don’t I don’t come home and be like, my God, what’s all the the research on this plan? I’m like, Okay, we got it. We got a friendship start. We got something going on here.
And I’ll sit with it for months, you know, and then depending on what ⁓ what comes through in that like, Hey, Andrew, how about we do a thing moment, then I’ll go and do some research about it, you know, and see what’s going on. And, you know, and I think like just taking your time with that and getting to know it. But also understanding especially like, for me personally,
Burdock is willing on a magical level to stand in for just about anything. Like it will, it will, you know, you know, if I’m like, man, I can’t find blah, blah, blah, blah. Hey, Burdock, you help me out here. It’s like, yeah, I got you. I’m going to no problem. Right. And so I think that we also do need to understand that if you’re working on a, you know, a magical level, not a medicinal level, but a magical level, ⁓
Sarah Corbett (45:49)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew McGregor (46:12)
In some ways, a spirit or a plant could theoretically do almost anything.
Sarah Corbett (46:17)
Literally anything depending on your relationship with them. ⁓
Andrew McGregor (46:19)
Yeah, right. Does it require
more work? Is it not as natural to it? You know, whatever, maybe.
Sarah Corbett (46:23)
I maybe, but like,
I don’t…I struggle with a lot of correspondences out there because, okay, and this is gonna be…this might like ruffle the feathers of the anti-deity chaos magic people. ⁓
Andrew McGregor (46:39)
Uh-huh.
Sarah Corbett (46:41)
We work with deities all the time to do all sorts of shit and to accomplish tons of different types of goals that maybe have like quote unquote nothing to do with those deities like most well carved out significations, right? Why do we put other spirits in specific boxes?
Andrew McGregor (46:52)
Mm-hmm.
Mm
hmm. Yeah. My dad’s gonna come down in a couple weeks and help me change my car battery. My dad’s not a mechanic. Right? My dad, my dad delivered, delivered letters for for a living, you know. But he’s like, Yeah, I’ll help you with that. That’s fine. I’ve done it. I can do it. We can do it. It’s no big deal. And I think it’s like that with plants too, right? You know?
Sarah Corbett (47:21)
Sure.
It’s like that with so many spirits, like, sure.
Well and also a lot of the thing with magical correspondences, we can go through a couple, is like they’re really mundane, honestly. Oaks are connected to abundance, not just because oak tree is a tree of Zeus and therefore Jupiter, and this is the planet of abundance. Oak is connected to abundance because in some bumper crop years it makes so many acorns that like you can’t even walk over your lawn without crunching thousands of acorns. Acorns are sustenance, they’re nourishment, they’re
Andrew McGregor (47:52)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sarah Corbett (48:00)
life-giving. But we used to.
Andrew McGregor (48:01)
Yeah, we don’t eat them much now, you know, and certainly not in North America. used to, but yeah, you know, and you can make flour from them and all sorts of great stuff, right? Yeah.
Sarah Corbett (48:08)
Right, like
we’re in a major oak bumper crop year and I really wish that my partner wasn’t allergic to tree nuts so that we could have acorn flower foods but, rose.
Andrew McGregor (48:16)
Right.
Sarah Corbett (48:20)
is a plant of beauty and love because it’s gorgeous and it smells so good and because when you apply rose petal products onto your skin, it makes you more beautiful by clearing blemishes and adding suppleness to your skin. ⁓ Like that’s just rational that you would work with this plant for beauty and love. It’s of course connected to lots of different love goddesses, but then we have other plants like garlic, which it
Andrew McGregor (48:42)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Corbett (48:50)
used in protection workings a lot of the times because it’s so pungent and aromatic and like off-putting in such a way. Rosemary, mugwort, these are like very aromatic plants that are used in protection again and it’s because of their like aromaticness that helps to drive evil away, drive things away that are unpleasant and not smelling so good, that are foul and will cause you harm. Like
Andrew McGregor (48:57)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Corbett (49:20)
A lot of these correspondences come from just a totally mundane understanding of these plants’ nature.
Andrew McGregor (49:27)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. And if it’s thorny, it’s probably good for protection too, right? You know? Yeah.
Sarah Corbett (49:33)
It’s good for baneful workings because if
you fall into a locust tree, you’re gonna be covered in blood, like…
Andrew McGregor (49:40)
Yep,
for sure.
Sarah Corbett (49:43)
So a lot, I think when people tend to look at just like, I don’t know, Cunningham’s book of magical herbs or something, which is like the most poorly cited resource I can think of at the moment. ⁓ Okay, it’s up there, you know?
Andrew McGregor (49:50)
sure.
Mm-hmm worse than Crowley’s 777
Sarah Corbett (50:03)
where he doesn’t really explain his rationale for these correspondences. If you look at this, you might say, well, shit, I need to have like 100 different herbs in my apothecary so that I can hit all of these bases.
But you might not have ever interacted with all hundred of those plants. You might not have ever seen them, smelled them, tasted them, felt them, observed them in their habitat, seen what they do. Another correspondence I’m thinking of is evergreen trees. Evergreen trees are connected to life-giving longevity. Why? Everyone?
Andrew McGregor (50:36)
they never drop their leaves.
Sarah Corbett (50:40)
Like, it’s stuff that you are smart enough to go out there and notice and then use in your own practice.
Andrew McGregor (50:46)
100 % Yeah.
And I you know, I think we also you know, when you look at somebody, somebody posted, I don’t know, maybe it was you, maybe it was somebody else, like, what’s your favorite tree thing? I saw this, you know, a while back, right? you know, and, and my answer is Black Locust and Catalpa. Those are my two favorites, right?
Sarah Corbett (51:12)
Oh, those are such…we
have those here and we don’t have a lot of catalpa trees here, but they’re like a tree that people often, like a specimen tree that people love to plant here. They’re so beautiful.
Andrew McGregor (51:18)
Yeah.
Yeah, they beautiful flowers.
Their seed pods are kind of cool at the end of the year and you know, their leaf shape is ⁓ reminiscent of ⁓ the bowtree, right? You know, which is also significant to me in different ways. ⁓ But even before I made those connections, those are always my, you know, have been my favorites, you know, and you know, oaks are great, maples are great.
Sarah Corbett (51:41)
Hmm.
Andrew McGregor (51:56)
Pines are great, you know, like, like all these things are great. ⁓ but it doesn’t need to be, you know, like, I don’t know that I’ve ever come across catapult tree mentioned in a herbal magical anything ever, you know,
Sarah Corbett (52:11)
Yeah, probably not. mean, because it’s Native to North America, so it’s not…most of these correspondence books are coming from like a lineage tradition throughout Europe and the Middle East and parts of Asia, but unless you’ve read like…
a couple thousand years of primary sources, you would never know that when Cunningham is saying this specific correspondence, he’s really talking about a correspondence written in a book a thousand years ago. This is one of the things I don’t like about ⁓ magical and pagan communities is like, we’ve like lost, because of the Victorians and the Theosophists and everything, like we’ve lost so much scholarship and attribution. ⁓
Andrew McGregor (52:56)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Sarah Corbett (52:59)
But yeah, like Catalbo wouldn’t be mentioned there because it’s not in that, in those traditions. So we have to figure out then how to understand this plant on our own.
Andrew McGregor (53:06)
Yeah. All right. ⁓
Mm
hmm. Yeah. And I think that’s also where being open to what’s really around you, like is also so beneficial, right? Because I can go find oak trees and this tree and that tree and you know, I mean, but you know, are those the ones that are speaking to me or those the ones that are, you know, have had the best PR over the last stretch of time, you know?
Sarah Corbett (53:40)
Yeah.
No, that’s definitely true. There are a lot of native plants here that have spiritual significance and indigenous traditions, but are never really written about from an herbal perspective or from a magical perspective that I deeply love and love to work with and have deep relationships with. One is bloodroot and root anemone. Those are really important woodland medicinals for me. Solomon’s seal. ⁓ There’s so much
so many plants that no one would ever consider to utilize in that way, but I would say like the most versatile relationship that I have with a plant that would do like for you with burdock would do pretty much everything for me or with me. It’s like yarrow, which is both native here and native to other places. ⁓ I recently went on a, I’m looking at it right now, so I’m thinking of it. I recently went on a really big deep dive with peach.
which is an Asian tree, but has developed such local significance to the point where I live in Georgia, we’re called the Peach State. The reasons are racist, I learned, which is no good. But everywhere you drive around here, Peach Tree Road, a thousand times, a thousand iterations of Peach Tree something are around here. And this is a tree that has so much spiritual, magical, and herbal significance. ⁓
Andrew McGregor (54:50)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Sarah Corbett (55:11)
It’s used in a lot of different cultures for like…
talismanic work. And there’s like a real rich nuanced tradition of this tree that like no one would maybe consider because it’s not something that you see in your landscape all the time. I just see it all the time because I live in Georgia.
Andrew McGregor (55:32)
for sure. Yeah.
Well, so I think we’ve given people some some good stuff to think about and get started with. Is there anything that you think we’ve missed that you might want to sort of offer up as we as we start to wrap up this conversation?
Sarah Corbett (55:52)
mean, the only other thing I’ve been thinking about as we’ve been talking about this, like building a relationship with a plant on any level is to really like sink into the sensory experience of that plant. If it is safe to do so, touch it, taste it, smell it, work with it over a long period of time in some fashion, whether it’s as a tea or a tincture or a flower essence for maybe our more toxic friends in the plant world.
just make sure you get one prepared by someone who actually knows what they’re doing. And even if for something like a tincture…
You can even just try one drop just to like feel the sensory experience of that plant in your body You don’t have to take like therapeutic doses of a plant and sometimes you shouldn’t because it can Shift your constitutional state or your tissue states in such a way that would bring about negative consequences Unless it was like specifically needed for you But you can learn so much about that plant by feeling that plant working through your body in some way and like pairing that with observing this plant over a full
Andrew McGregor (56:56)
Hmm.
Sarah Corbett (57:00)
life cycle, all four seasons for two to three years ⁓ will teach you so much. And like this is the foundation of herbalism and the foundation of witchcraft. Witchcraft comes from the land, herbalism comes from the land. You will like learning through an embodied practice like that will teach you so much that maybe you could find in books, but you wouldn’t understand.
Andrew McGregor (57:02)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Sarah Corbett (57:30)
unless you actually felt it. And like to your point before, sorry go ahead.
Andrew McGregor (57:33)
Yeah. And once you. ⁓ I was to say, and once you’ve
done it once, then then you have a roadmap for how to do it again and again and again. Right. And that’s where, you know, your personal top 10 plant friends come from, you know.
Sarah Corbett (57:44)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And that’s different for every herbalist. Like there are some plants that I work with that are like I would…my writer dies, like I would need to take on a deserted island, you know? That some herbalists don’t work with at all. And there are other, like herbalists in other regions of the US, like my friends in the Southwest love chaperol.
I have never worked with that plant because I don’t live in the Southwest. I don’t have access to that plant. ⁓ I know people all across the US who have these like deep relationships, like they are well known for that plant. And for me, like it’s bee balm, like I will be well known as the bee balm lady because I’m obsessed with bee balm and I tell everyone about bee balm all the time and it’s like the one plant that I cannot live without. ⁓ But a lot of people will never see that plant in their life unless it’s like planted in their
Andrew McGregor (58:20)
Yeah, sure.
huh. Yep.
Sarah Corbett (58:46)
landscape garden. There you go. I want to like collect every variety of bee balm in the world and like somehow breed my own hybrid. It’s like one of my long term goals. ⁓
Andrew McGregor (58:47)
I have some in my front yard.
I look forward to it.
Sarah Corbett (59:02)
But, like to your point before, when you hear something from a plant, a plant speaks to you about something they want to do with you and you spend time just listening to that and not looking for other information about it. It is really cool when your personal gnosis is verified by a whole community of people who’ve experienced this same thing from that plant.
And you can find that kind of information in some herbal monographs written by herbalists who have more of a relational bent. Like in all of my monographs, I write about like the psychological profile and the spiritual significations of a plant, if I can find it. And if I have developed that understanding with them. Other herbalists do the same thing. Magical practitioners have their own sort of magical materia medica or materia magica, I guess.
where they have documented collective experience around a plant and they can help offer you guidance on how to work with these plants. ⁓ But it’s that embodied knowledge, whether it’s from an herbal teacher or a magical teacher, that I really emphasize over just reading stuff in books that show like a table.
Andrew McGregor (1:00:19)
her or watching TikToks.
Sarah Corbett (1:00:22)
are watching TikToks. I mean, some people on TikTok are really great. But sometimes I’m on TikTok and I’m like, wow, I never thought of doing a working like that. Save. ⁓ there’s some great people out there who like want to teach and want to share. But if you didn’t have access to any of that, you could glean plenty just from being on the land.
Andrew McGregor (1:00:25)
For sure. Yep.
Cool. Thank you so much for having this conversation today. It has been every bit as delightful as I hoped it would be. Yeah. You know, so for folks who are going to listen to this and want to come and find you, where should they hang out? I know you’re not so much on the socials these days, but where are you? Where can they find you?
Sarah Corbett (1:00:55)
Aw, thank you so much for having me. It’s been a joy.
Yeah, I’m
taking a break from social media right now. I’ll probably be back maybe…I don’t know, I’m trying to see if you can run an online business without social media. Everyone says it can’t be done, we’re gonna try it. ⁓ I…
Andrew McGregor (1:01:25)
Well, maybe we’ll have a future
business episode as well.
Sarah Corbett (1:01:29)
yeah, sure. It’s weird being in business for nine years and now like trying to do things totally differently, but it’s good too. And I don’t know every, not to go on like a super side note, but every single person I’ve talked to about leaving social media has said that they want to leave social media. And then no one does it or some people do it and…
like life goes on, but if all of us want to leave, why are we all like holding ourselves beholden to these exploitative, dehumanizing platforms? It’s a whole conversation. But I am…if you go to my website, it’s RowanandSage.com
Andrew McGregor (1:02:03)
Yep. It’s a whole conversation.
Sarah Corbett (1:02:12)
and all my links are there. This winter, which is 2025, I’m really trying to focus on beefing up our blog. I’ve been going through the process of updating every single blog post I’ve ever written and making it more user-friendly and in-depth and well-cited. So folks can find a lot of free information and recipes and magical herbalism and astrological herbalism and medical herbalism there on the blog. I also have a variety of different
courses and workshops with guest teachers that folks can learn from and I think the people here might be really interested in my seasonal herb craft program which is a year-long exploration of relational herbalism through the zodiacal year from an asher herbal perspective. ⁓
Andrew McGregor (1:02:59)
nice.
Sarah Corbett (1:03:00)
And so it’s using the sun’s movements through the Zyraikul Wheel as like a guide for how we can build a preventative herbal care practice, what body areas we should maybe tend to during these seasons and learn about what plants we can learn about. And my like real goal with that program is for everyone to a like foundational understanding of their bio regional year of what the seasons look like around
them. And I have students who really said that it’s like absolutely changed their life, which is such a joy to hear.
Andrew McGregor (1:03:37)
I have no doubt, know, committing to ⁓
a year cycle of working with the movement of the cosmos is just such a such a powerful practice, right? Like
Sarah Corbett (1:03:49)
And it’s like one way to orient your herbal learning, but I find it to be one that’s really felt like you can really see the land shift and feel your body change and also experience this like beautiful through line of thousands of years of human relationship with the land and the meaning that we have made over that time. ⁓
I try to share a lot of that in that program. So folks might enjoy that. You can go to seasonalurbcraft.com or just find it on my website. But I’m also over on Pinterest because it’s nice there and pretty and everyone’s just nice to each other and shares beautiful photos of things.
Andrew McGregor (1:04:32)
Yeah, exactly, for sure.
Sarah Corbett (1:04:35)
So if you like to scroll and save, you can hang out with me over there. And then I also have an online community herbalism program called Herbaria, where I share all my writings. We share new plant profiles and monographs on a near monthly basis. There’s like over 50 plants that we’ve covered there. ⁓
over 200 recipes classes. It’s like our full learning library of materials that I’ve created over the years lives in there and you can sign up for a monthly fee. Yeah and so those are my main things.
Andrew McGregor (1:05:05)
Amazing.
Cool. That’s awesome. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being on. Super appreciate it. Lovely to get to have this conversation and I look forward to more in the future.
Sarah Corbett (1:05:18)
thank you.
Yes, I hope so. I’d be happy to talk anytime.
Andrew McGregor (1:05:26)
Awesome.
Andrew McGregor (1:05:29)
I really hope you enjoyed this episode. This is part of the continuing series of getting started in magic and spirituality, including episodes on astrology, as well as tarot and other good things coming along this year. Do me a favor, spread the word, send some love out there by sharing it, by telling people about it. Getting discovered is so difficult.
these days and there’s so much noise out there. Your personal recommendations go so far in helping make sure this reaches folks. Alright, ⁓ thank you so much for listening. We’ll see you soon.