The return of Stacking Skulls!

Welcome to the 2025 return of the podcast. What better way to start than by getting the bad back together. I know it is a wild time right now. I don’t want to not acknowledge it. Also, I think some time out and having something else to focus on can be so helpful during hard times.

Stacking Skulls started as a fake occult rock band in 2017 when a group pf my magical friends got together to record an episode. Since then we’ve had shifting lineups and guest artists but the core of Aidan Wachter, Fabeku Fatunmisi, and me – Andrew McGregor have remained. You can catch all the episodes here.

In this episode we catch up on what has changed since 2021 when we last talked.

Listen to the episode on all the platforms. Or use the player below.

You can download the audio here.

You can find us on the socials. Or Aidan is here, Fabeku is here, and Andrew is here.

Episodes with drop biweekly going forward. Help me let know I’m back by sharing on socials and leaving review on the platform on which you listen to us.

Much love

Andrew

Transcript.

Andrew McGregor (00:01.053)
Hey folks, welcome back to the Hermit’s Lamp podcast. Way back in December of 2021, I declared that I was done podcasting. I was super burned out on everything as many people were at that time. And it was increasingly difficult to not find people that I want to talk to, but find people who had any bandwidth for having conversations. People were just…

really overwhelmed and not looking to do stuff. And you know, I just decided to shut it down. But here we are. It’s now when I’m recording this December of 2024. So three years later, and I’ll tell you over the last month or two, the bug has really gotten to me. I’m like, I really need to get back to podcasting. And of course I decided that the

ff (00:56.966)
.

Andrew McGregor (00:57.661)
First episode should be getting the band together. So today we’re going to hang out with Stacking Skulls, which is my good friends Aiden and Fabeiku. Way back when we were hanging out in the lost continent of Atlantis, we started this occult rock band and recorded a bunch of episodes, you know, which there’ll be a note in the show links for it. You can find all of them.

We’ve had a variety of supporting band members over the years in our conversations. but you know, today we’re going back to the, to the original lineup, to the three of us who are still podcasting and doing stuff. And, you know, of course we always send our love to John, who was one of the also original band members who, you know, stepped back to focus on other areas. We don’t want to not acknowledge him.

ff (01:32.894)
you

Andrew McGregor (01:52.841)
But yeah, and our last episode was in June of 2021 came out and yeah, so I thought it’d be great place to start. Let’s catch up again. But you know, given that maybe everybody hasn’t listened to our entire discography, let’s do a real quick, you know, who are you? And then we’ll get into what’s going on these days. You want to go first for Baku?

ff (02:17.867)
Sure. At this point, probably the easiest way to describe who I am is I’m an artist who sometimes does other stuff. Some of that other stuff looks like teaching and consulting and all of that. My background, lifelong student of occult stuff, practice initiated into Arisha practice and traditional lineages.

which at this point is kind of my main focus. yeah, that’s it. That’s what I got.

Aidan Wachter (02:55.586)
I’m in such a transitionary phase who knows My current joke is that you know, my name is Aidan and my pronouns are optional there you can be either it or that or yes, and But yeah lifetime magical practitioner at this point

I’m kind of playing with this intersection of animism and a particular set of practices that have been given to me by my allies and my ancestors. And we’re really just kind of hyper-focused on that at this point. I’ve got a few books out and I’m working on another one that will be more focused on what I just said.

Andrew McGregor (03:39.817)
Well yeah and for folks who maybe aren’t so familiar with me, you know I’m Andrew. like everybody have been practicing magic since the Pangea split into separate continents. You know did a big tour through ceremonial magic and all sorts of things. Have been really blessed to have access to a lot of amazing

magical teachers and community members and elders of one stripe or another who’ve shared a lot of different things with me also practicing traditional Cuban lineage of Arisha stuff, which is generally my personal focus these days. But you know, I’ve been card slinging for folks since 2000 and running my store and there’s a lot of things that kind of come with that. But also, yeah, in a big phase of transition right now. So, you know,

ff (04:15.34)
you

ff (04:27.212)
Okay.

Andrew McGregor (04:37.307)
I mean, it’s interesting how the three of us have kept in contact for sure, but you know, stuff is changing and I guess, you know, maybe let’s start there. What’s going on with all the change? What’s different? Where are you feeling pulled?

Aidan Wachter (04:55.176)
I mean, I first have to just throw out there for all of the younger folks listening that you get, mean, I know it just sounds like cranky old man shit, but magic was way cooler in the late Cretaceous. And so we just have to get that out of the way if we seem snobby.

ff (05:04.427)
Thank

Andrew McGregor (05:05.265)
It’s true, it’s Yeah. Although we still, we still, yeah, we still seemed, you know, yearning for when, when all magic was ocean magic, you know, I mean, that’s, that’s the real classic, right? And, you know, I mean, I yearn for those secret lost texts written on algae of yore, you know?

Aidan Wachter (05:18.528)
Exactly, exactly.

ff (05:29.003)
Sigils and stromatolites, that’s what it is kids, sigils and stromatolites.

Aidan Wachter (05:32.596)
the way it is. Exactly.

Andrew McGregor (05:37.351)
The fossils just don’t do it justice, you know?

ff (05:38.942)
They do that.

Andrew McGregor (05:43.431)
Yeah. So in case, in case you, don’t get it now, none of us take anything too seriously, right? Like it’s, you know, that, that is not where we are coming from, you know, or maybe, maybe more so I’ve been often using this tagline around like the, the presence of the shop in the world, which is serious, but not pretentious, right? Like, you know, very serious about the stuff we carry and providing, you know,

Aidan Wachter (05:50.26)
Ha ha ha ha!

Andrew McGregor (06:12.745)
sincerely genuine items and magical practices and advice and all those things. But I’m like, I don’t, it doesn’t matter to me. Is this your first candle you’re buying? Is this your a thousandth candle you’re, you’re doing something with, you know, are you, you cranking out your, your full, you know, Abram Allen working and doing stuff every day for the next six months in a, in a cave in the Hills. Fantastic.

Are you like, you know, just giving a little hat tip to the ancestors every so often? It’s all good, right? Like we’re where we’re at and we’re doing what we’re doing. And yeah, it’s not, it’s not comparative or yeah, any of those things.

Aidan Wachter (06:49.339)
Absolutely.

Aidan Wachter (06:59.849)
Yeah.

Aidan Wachter (07:04.818)
Yeah, I mean, I could start there, I guess. I’m not sure how I would describe it, except that it’s kind of a combo of those, of what we just were talking about. That I don’t take kind of how I’m perceived is not a big thing to me. I don’t take kind of the identity side of magic seriously at all anymore. It’s kind of like, I do what I do.

ff (07:28.235)
you

Aidan Wachter (07:32.52)
I know what it is, I’m very serious about that. I’m very serious about my connection to what I call the peeps, my allies and my ancestors and the powers that I work with. But I’m not overly serious outside of that. And even within that, I mean…

I’m foul with my peeps in a way that I’m sure that my devotional polytheist friends would be like actually appalled with if they heard the way that I wander around my apartment talking to them, because it really is like motherfuckers and bitches all the time. But this is what hangs around me, so it doesn’t matter. If that’s not your jam, you probably aren’t in the house, because I’m just like that. I think that there’s a big transition going on because of…

Andrew McGregor (08:06.632)
Right.

Aidan Wachter (08:20.264)
I think we hit a point in the world where there was a point where people could kind of ignore what’s going on in the larger world and that’s kind of passed for way more people than I think it was previously. Like I think there’s always been a kind of push that if we could get back to a slightly better version of status quo, things would be okay. And I think that as that’s fallen apart, at least for me and the people that I deal with in the world, we have a lot of kind of, whether it’s ancestral or allied,

kind of clamoring towards like…

Maybe you can’t fix it, but you gotta do something to get involved a little more deeply and try and help people out here. So that’s what’s changed for me.

Andrew McGregor (09:05.929)
Yeah.

ff (09:08.328)
Yeah, I think there’s a, I don’t know how to say it, there’s a understandable disorientation, right? I think there’s a sense of things feel like they’ve gone so far off the rails and are continuing to go off the rails at a velocity that is alarming at best. And I think people are just super disoriented. Who am I? What do I do? What does it mean? Can I do anything?

How do we do anything? Which end is up? All of that.

I think that’s the part that I’m focusing a lot on is how to get oriented, how to stay oriented to whatever degree that’s possible. What does that mean? When we get oriented, what do we do? For me, the focus on that is largely through spiritual practice, through divination, through art, through community. I all of those things feel, I mean, they’ve always felt important, but now it feels

incredibly dangerous to sort of lose focus on any of those pieces right now at all.

Aidan Wachter (10:20.348)
Yeah, I definitely agree with all of that, but.

Andrew McGregor (10:20.425)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew McGregor (10:24.391)
Yeah, yeah, I can see that for sure. Yeah, I mean, I, I’ve been I’ve been, I mean, obviously, deeply impacted by world changes and all that jazz that’s going on for sure. Right. But you know, as a single parents to a kid with a lot of needs, you know, and whom the system from the school system to other systems have just failed so much.

You know, I’ve been really spending a lot of time just keeping or attempting to keep equilibrium in these sort of immediate circles, you know, and kind of maybe over the last four, three, four months since the summer, I’ve been sort of getting stuff’s been getting better and stabler and whatever. And

I’ve been sort of lifting my head up and looking at things and being like, okay, what’s going on in the world? I don’t like a lot of it. And I mean, it’s not that I wasn’t aware, but also realizing where am I at now? I’ve been reading cards for people as a major part of my living for 24 years now.

ff (11:38.361)
Okay.

Andrew McGregor (11:51.345)
I just sort of had this moment where I started with a small question with a friend in a tarot session. were, you know, looking at some stuff and he started asking me some questions like, man, this is a big shift, you know, and over the last while I’ve started really shifting a lot of things. And it’s not that I don’t want to read cards for folks. love reading cards for folks. But there’s a lot of other stuff that I’m working on.

I want to work on and that I need space to really settle into, you know? And so I’ve been adjusting a lot of things and just kind of looking at like, okay, what what was good at one point but doesn’t serve me or what was necessary at one point doesn’t serve me, you know, and and it’s it’s interesting to sort of go through that and shake up stuff that’s just been taken for granted for a while, right?

And, you know, yeah, I mean, what’s the, what’s the role of that in the bigger world? Well, I mean, returning to podcast is part of it. You know, I think that the podcast is a really, beneficial thing in the world, you know, and I’ve, when, as I started talking about it with different people, the feedback that I got about returning was, was just like, so, so wonderful, you know, and

And I think that that’s a part of where I’m at these days.

ff (13:22.981)
Yeah, I hear that a lot. think, and I have my own version of that. I think there’s a lot of people that are thinking, what am I doing? And why am I doing it? And do I want to be doing it? And is this the thing to do? And if it’s not, what do I do? And how do I create space to do that when it feels like the whole world is on fire? And again, we’re at a velocity that’s slightly terrifying on the best of days. And it seems like, yeah, there’s a lot of rebuilding while the plane is

crashing and burning at the same time. It’s like the masks have dropped, the doors have opened, the planes on fire were 10,000 feet from the ground, and now we get to create an entirely new thing, hopefully, before we hit the ground. It’s a lot.

Andrew McGregor (13:55.293)
Yeah.

Andrew McGregor (14:06.717)
Right? Yeah.

Aidan Wachter (14:07.879)
Totally.

Andrew McGregor (14:09.853)
Yeah.

Aidan Wachter (14:11.719)
Well, I think that’s super interesting too, thinking about it that way, because, Fabiki, like, you guys and I, we’ve all talked about this privately, but, you know, I had this massive crash and burn shortly after the last book came out that was really kind of like the predecessor to this kind of period of time. I can kind of look at it now. I can kind of go like, I credit, for anybody not knowing kind of the most recent forms of me, but I credit the allies and the ancestors.

for my ability to function very much so I’m not here alone and thank God the gods whatever you want to call that thing but I really do feel like they were kind of like you gotta you gotta finish up some shit that you started a million years ago back in the late Cretaceous and you gotta finish that so that you can be in a position to kind of ride what’s coming

Because if I had had that same kind of period of kind of my personal crash and burn right now, it would have been very unpretty. Even less pretty. And part of that has been that push for me of figuring out what do I do now in the sense of community, in the sense of being out in the world. I have never been comfortable with the concept of being a teacher, even though

kind of known that that’s what I do. And a lot of things kind of conspired to go, you know, suck it up and get on with it. So it’s been figuring out how do I generate platforms in the modern world that work for me to do that thing? And how do I get clear enough to that people know what they’re getting? Because I am not for everybody. Like I’m the least.

Like you want outlines, want syllabus, who are you even talking to? Like, get real, that is not my universe. But if those things have never made sense to you either, we should talk.

Andrew McGregor (16:13.737)
That’s right.

Andrew McGregor (16:26.409)
Yeah, go outside, find some dirt you like. Start talking to it. Put some in your pockets and see where you go.

ff (16:29.989)
Thank

Aidan Wachter (16:32.966)
see what happens, go from there. Put some in your pockets, put some in your mouth. Figure out, don’t stick the rocks up your nose. Ask me how I know. Yeah.

ff (16:39.844)
He

Andrew McGregor (16:45.095)
right? Or make sure you make sure you have some tweezers. Yeah.

Andrew McGregor (16:54.419)
Yeah. Yeah. I’ve been thinking about my role in the Tarot world more than anything else, you know, and, you know, I’m generally not a fan of this term and I’m never going to go around and be like,

Andrew McGregor, Tarot Master, Andrew McGregor, you know, whatever, right? Like, I don’t know. But at the same time, you know, I look at kind of where, who are the Tarot people I’m friends with? Who do I talk about Tarot with? You know, and who comes to me to talk about Tarot? I do mean like clients, but mostly I mean like, you know, in the bigger Tarot world, right?

ff (17:32.741)
you

Andrew McGregor (17:41.201)
You know, I was talking to a friend of mine the other day and she’s like, well, you know, you’re a tarot elder now, right? I’m like, huh? Yeah, maybe I guess so. Okay. Sure. And thinking about that, you know, thinking about those kinds of things has reorientated some of what I’m doing, especially because I tend to just be real focused on what’s in front of me and not looking at the bigger picture, you know, and kind of around the same time.

ff (18:01.993)
you

Andrew McGregor (18:10.651)
I was on one of the socials and scrolling through stuff, looking at what’s going on. And there’s all these people talking about authors and author this and writing books. And I was like, yeah, I wrote three books. I guess I’m an author. And it’s such a, such a funny thing to sort of, because I think, you know, like to some extent, like both of you kind of hold a lot of this stuff fairly loosely, you know, I do stuff, I make stuff, I put it in the world.

and I make more stuff and I work with people and I just keep going, you know? But it’s like when you turn around and be like, huh, I made five Oracle tarot decks of cards. I wrote three books. I’m currently working on two separate decks and I’ve got like three books I’m thinking about writing. like, huh, I guess I got a lot to say at this point, you know?

And like, don’t know if other people, this is not like braggy, braggy. This is like truly surprising to me in some ways. Even if you had asked me and I’d be like, yeah, blah, blah, blah. But like, it’s such a strange thing. And I don’t know what it is. Maybe it’s just a thing about me, but I feel like it’s also something about what’s going on at this time. You know, this sort of reorganization of myself in the world.

that highlights a different kind of picture.

ff (19:40.667)
Yeah, it’s interesting because it made me laugh as you’re talking because a couple months ago I released a book that I spent most of year making and in my mind somehow as I was doing it it felt like the first book. It’s the sixth book I’ve done. It’s the sixth book and literally until I was right at the end of that in my mind I’m like cool I’m putting a book out it’s like hey dummy you’ve done six books isn’t that the first book?

Andrew McGregor (19:55.987)
Yeah. Right?

ff (20:08.036)
But I think in some ways for me, I think that PC said about, do you just keep making stuff and keep going? Like I don’t build a foundation on six books. It’s like this is the thing I’ve done. This is the thing right now that feels the most relevant and important and useful and meaningful. And that’s the focus. It’s not, think I, I don’t know. And in some ways it feels good not to wrap my identity up in that stuff in ways that, cause I mean,

Yeah, in some ways, who cares that I published six books? And at the same time, I also think it’s interesting the point you made because increasingly people have been using that term elder in relation to me and I’m always like, who are you talking about? And then I’m like, right, I have done this for a minute. I’ve been around for a second and I’m getting older. Right? That’s the thing. So it is that interesting kind of paradox of

Andrew McGregor (20:53.031)
Yeah. Talking about that silver fox over there.

Aidan Wachter (20:58.925)
hahahaha

ff (21:06.009)
yeah, I’ve done a bunch of stuff and I don’t really think about it a lot. Not really, anyway. I mean, I’m proud of it, but I don’t, you know, like I said, it took me a minute to realize this is book number whatever. You know, I’m just focused on what’s the next thing and how do we do it? What does it do? Why are we doing it? What’s the use of it?

Aidan Wachter (21:25.952)
Yeah, I had two pieces that are related to that recently. I’ve been talking, I’ve been seeing the somatic therapist for the last year and a half, almost two years now, and he’s been amazing and has really helped me out in a ton of ways. the teaching thing has come up and

I’ve discussed my discomfort with it as a title and all this. I was like, I don’t really like it. I never have probably because I was terrible at school and didn’t really like my teachers for nothing more advanced than that. But, and we had this conversation and she was kind of like, you really need to look at that. within a couple of days I got, I was listening to a podcast that I had, that I’d recorded with Leanne Brooke Tyler who’s

got a podcast called Be Mythical that I’ve been a guest on for years. And she records the introductions after you record. And so I would just throw this thing on, because I usually don’t remember what I’ve talked about a couple months later. And then it comes up and people will write me or whatever and say, hey, can we talk about this or what’s up with this? So I usually will listen to them once, like on the day that they release, if I get them. I’m listening to this thing and she’s like, you know,

He’s a teacher, he’s a healer, and I’m like, what the fuck? And it was actually really funny, because the fact that she used healer, which was so over the top to me, completely allowed me to just kind of go like, teacher is fine, I’m okay with that.

Andrew McGregor (22:51.132)
Uh-huh.

ff (23:04.098)
Side by side, I’ll take door number one.

Andrew McGregor (23:04.265)
All

Andrew McGregor (23:08.617)
Give me 10 years. Maybe maybe I’ll take some ownership of healer at that point.

Aidan Wachter (23:13.984)
And then the next time we got together, like six months later, I told her about this. Three months later, and she was like, I called you a healer? That’s in your bio, right? Because I usually just read this stuff from your bio. I’m like, hell no, it’s not in my bio. And she’s like, you know, I’ve read all your books and we’ve talked a lot. Can you actually state that that is not like a large part of the focus of your work? It’s not healing work? And I was like, fuck you.

Andrew McGregor (23:42.493)
Ha ha ha ha ha.

ff (23:42.529)
you

Aidan Wachter (23:42.869)
hate you, Leanne, you know? And so some of it is coming into kind of acceptance when we’re not, I think, people who super identify with this. There’s a lot of people who I think it’s really important for them to have that author title or that healer title or whatever, master to reader title. And I don’t think any of us really are there, probably because we’re all kind of goofballs and we know it.

And it’s funny, because it’s like then shortly after that at my therapist, I was talking about something and she’s like, well, know, you’re almost you’re 57. You’ve been at this forever in this lifetime. And you’re kind of entering that elder phase. Again, seriously, you all stop. But it’s also not wrong.

Andrew McGregor (24:32.019)
Come on. Yeah.

Aidan Wachter (24:39.287)
And so it’s a funny phase. I mean, that’s definitely some of where I’m at now. So, you know, I keep kind of getting pushed in those directions. It’s like, as soon as I kind of said, maybe I could do this live, like I do it online. And the next day I was invited to a conference to teach in 2026. I’m like, okay, 2026, that means I have time to practice. I could figure out how to do this live before I’m at some event with people that theoretically know who I am.

Andrew McGregor (24:45.328)
Yeah.

Andrew McGregor (25:08.361)
100%.

Aidan Wachter (25:09.459)
are expecting me to be able to talk in front of people and not be a complete babbling idiot.

Andrew McGregor (25:15.219)
Well, maybe maybe this is a good question for us to talk about. So what?

What would it mean to you to be an elder? What kind of elder are you? What would change about the way in which you are being in the world if you took ownership of that? Aiden’s, Aiden’s, I’m not sure, flipping me off, flipping off both of us, flipping off the whole world. Yeah, it must be me. Sorry.

ff (25:37.984)
I didn’t say anything it has to be you it wasn’t me I’m just I’m not saying it works that’s all yours Andrew

Aidan Wachter (25:41.206)
You

Aidan Wachter (25:46.614)
You

Andrew McGregor (25:48.425)
For those listening, Aiden just gave me double birdies. yeah. Well, that case, maybe we’ll make Fibaco answer first. What would it mean to you?

Aidan Wachter (25:58.987)
Ha

ff (25:59.008)
So clearly Aidan is the smarter of the two of us because if I didn’t know that I would have flipped you off too.

ff (26:10.241)
I think to me at this point, my focus has always largely been on community, but that’s the main thing. That in and of itself is a complex thing for all kinds of reasons, but it feels like an inconvenient place to focus, and it feels like probably the only smart place for me to focus at the same time.

At least the main place. Because I’m not sure how we navigate stuff in the absence of it. And I think that a gathering of bodies is not a community. I don’t think those are the same things. And I think that we need functional or semi-functional communities at least. And so my focus is on what does that look like and what does it mean and how do we do it. And the other part of it is…

more loudly and more obnoxiously than ever kind of advocating for artists and art. And when I say art, I mean all forms. don’t just mean it in the way we usually think about it. you know, in all of the ways and getting it out in the world and doing things with it and using art as a, for all of the things that it can be, saving people’s lives and shifting things and destroying things and building things and all of it. To me, that feels, it almost feels, and mean, that’s again, largely been true, but especially in

recently it feels like anything else is just kind of playing games while the house is burning down. It just seems like a poor investment of energy for me to do other stuff and so those things have become even more urgent than they have

Andrew McGregor (27:54.707)
I can see that right? mean, I think that, yeah, I think that one of the things that sort of this transition that I’m going through right now is about is what is the best use of my time and energy? Right? Like what is what is the thing that’s going to, you know, most support me doing my work. Most support my family. Most support the people who I’m going to work with, you know,

ff (28:08.371)
Yeah, for sure.

Andrew McGregor (28:24.137)
And really sort of looking at the stuff that interferes with that And being like i’m just not doing it anymore. That’s it. You know, like one of the big things that I dropped was I no longer take walking clients 24 years I took walking clients if i’m at the shop and i’m available and someone comes in i’ll read for them And you know, I just I was like I can’t do this anymore. You know people got a book a day ahead now and it’s you know, it’s

Created it’s not about the it’s more about the like cognitive shifting and the sort of lack of the ability to plant than anything else You know, and I’m just like I can’t do that anymore I don’t want to do that anymore because I have a lot of work to do and I have a lot of deep work to do And I don’t want to get disrupted by that, you know, yeah What about for you Aidan?

ff (29:13.439)
Thank

Aidan Wachter (29:17.863)
You know, for me it’s, it is interesting because it’s interesting to me on a few levels, which is one that, again, I’m a good bit, not a huge bit, but a good bit older than both of you. And so it’s not like I have like an impending sense of my doom, but it’s an awareness. You go, I’m not going to really be here for that much longer compared to how long I’ve been here already. I am not in midlife.

Because God help me if I die at 114, I don’t want that to happen. Take me about 25 years earlier than that and I’m okay. You know, but so that I think is definitely a piece because inside I don’t feel that. Inside I feel like I’m somewhere between 17 and 30. You know, that’s that there’s some part of me that never has grown up in a way. In the way that I think our culture tends to age people, I don’t think a lot of that happened to me.

Andrew McGregor (29:46.451)
Yes.

ff (30:02.736)
Thank

Aidan Wachter (30:15.989)
different stuff did. So there’s that piece. And then coming out of, again, my breakdown was about that. I was trying to put more distance between me and what I do with all of the allies and peeps and ancestors and magic.

than I had before for a bunch of reasons. And they basically said no, which I’m really thankful for because it wasn’t the right move. And they were really like, we’re going to, well, I told somebody the other day that they were pretty much like, you you asked for all of this. And if you try and walk away, we’ll just crack you open like a walnut. Like you’re going to figure out that that’s not the right decision.

And I did. And coming back from that, it’s been this couple of year process of going like, and it’s kind of tied into what Fubuki said in particular of like, what’s the most useful thing I can do? Like, I have always done this for a different purpose than a lot of the people that I know in the communities that I’ve been in. I’ve always been driven by some different things.

And the clearer that that gets, the more it’s like, what do you want me to do?

with the folks that work through me and with me, meaning the spirit side of things. And they’re very clear. They’re like, make space for people that are kind of on your, that are kind of on the same line as you and get really unapologetic about what you don’t care about and what you’re not focused on and go really hard at what you are. And also to kind of overcome my shyness.

Aidan Wachter (32:12.462)
an introversion to kind of hunt down some folks that I really do appreciate and go, hey, I really appreciate the work that you’re doing. And some of that has just been cool, thanks. And some of that has opened up some new friendships and some new kind of lines of things for me to look at. And so if there’s an elder aspect of that, I think it’s really just like settling in to like, this started when I was a kid.

It has not gone away. I’m not here forever, so what matters? And I’m gonna focus on what matters and really try and what you were saying, Andrew, like really decenter what doesn’t to the maximum extent that I can.

ff (32:52.733)
.

Andrew McGregor (32:55.369)
Yeah, yeah, I think you know for me one of the things too has just been like

Andrew McGregor (33:03.645)
Revisiting what what is the way in which I’m gonna work right and what is what is how I show up and what and to an extent also what am I what am I? Asking and expecting from folks who want to show up in my world, you know and especially as time goes on in the you know, whatever social merit social media iteration we’re living these days and you know, like I look at so many

interactions and all these kinds of things and I’m kind like I don’t really want like a lot of this I really want like you know early days Facebook like hey here’s my sandwich I eat hey how’s it going look at my dog like actual commentary and engagement too you know as opposed to like you know I I reshared something recently that said something to the effect of

One of the worst things about the internet is that it has convinced us that we all need to appear wise. And I’m like, yeah, I really feel that solidly because there’s plenty of wisdom, sure, but also like everybody jockeying to show what they know and to this and that and whatever. And I’m just like, I don’t want that, you know? And yeah.

ff (34:10.075)
Mayor.

ff (34:30.786)
Yeah, I think a lot about that. think that that… I think when making a way in the world shifted in a way that put all the weight on attention, on getting it, on maintaining it, on stoking it, on… I think it’s broken us. I mean, I think it’s broken everybody, right? It’s all of the people whose attention people are chasing are exhausted because everybody’s trying to get their attention. The people that are doing the chasing are exhausted because…

Andrew McGregor (34:38.025)
you

ff (34:58.768)
That’s all they feel like they can do is try to keep dancing on stage to maintain or get attention. And it’s also led to largely meaningless shit. know, like I said, I would rather see a photo of somebody’s dog than some trash post that says nothing that somebody’s throwing up. They know it says nothing and they’re putting it up because they need to feed the algorithm to keep their shit in people’s faces. It feels, I think what I think I’m feeling a lot lately is

I’m thinking about all the ways that we’ve lost our humanity, right? The way we engage each other, the way we engage the world, we engage ourselves, the way we build businesses and make businesses and market, all of it. It’s like there’s just, there’s such a loss of humanity in a way that, I don’t know, it feels, I don’t know, it feels like everybody’s running around doing a thing we were told to do. Nobody wants to do it.

Nobody’s digging it. It doesn’t feel right to almost anybody. And yet we’re all running around trying to smile and nod and act like we’re into this shit. I don’t know anybody who’s into it. Well, some, but very few people that are into this shit. And it’s fatiguing. And to me, like you said, show me a picture of your dog. me, what song are you loving right now? What did you make for dinner last night? What’s the last poem you read that matters? Show me the art that…

made you cry or laugh or something. Just give me some kind of human thing. I don’t need your latest hot take on some shit that nobody cares about. You know, I just, who cares? Just be a human being.

Andrew McGregor (36:35.773)
I already blocked the phrase hot take and unpopular opinion on the platforms that allow me to block such things, you know? Yeah, now. Yeah. Well, it’s funny too, right? Because, you know, it’s it’s end of year time. And so like all the different platforms are kicking up analytics of you know, from my from my wrapped music to my whatever. And

ff (36:39.286)
Hehehehehe

ff (36:45.596)
Smart. Smart.

Aidan Wachter (36:45.69)
Ha

Andrew McGregor (37:04.179)
You know, I use like a pretty popular social media posting software, right? I don’t, I’m not, I’m not not a fan, but I’m also not a huge fan. So whatever it doesn’t matter who it is. Right. but like they sent me this thing and they’re like, you posted blah, blah, blah, blah. You’re in the top 5 % of everybody using our software. And I just stopped for a minute and I’m like, wow, that’s wild to think about.

because this and it’s wild to think about because I posted 1200 posts last year but that’s across Facebook that like each post that goes to different location is counted there right so that’s Instagram Twitter before I stopped posting there Pinterest and Instagram right

ff (37:49.563)
Yes.

Aidan Wachter (37:49.775)
Right.

Andrew McGregor (38:02.441)
So that means that probably I posted like 250 to 300 posts last year, which is still quite a lot, you know? But like I run a store, right? Like I’m posting for a store is a lot more straightforward than maybe other things because I’m like, look at this cool stuff I got in. Look at this cool stuff I got in. Have you seen this other cool thing? And you know, but like.

There’s this notion that we need to post three times a day and blah, blah, blah, and all this stuff. And there’s so much dialogue around what we should do, right? And this dialogue around doing more and doing more and doing more. And, and to what end, right? Like I think that we’ve conflated this sort of question of, if you want to be an influencer, that’s one thing. But if you want to just do something else, it’s,

ff (38:32.315)
you.

Andrew McGregor (38:57.839)
It’s apples and oranges. Those two conversations don’t belong together. But we don’t, it’s hard to keep a perspective on that, you know?

Aidan Wachter (39:06.765)
Yeah, it’s super interesting too. This is super quick one, but like I just updated my website for the first time in like five years. And so I switched from the older version of Squarespace to the new one. And as you’re doing it, you know, they’re giving you prompts to like help you do it right. They’re like, so do it like this so that you don’t fuck up your standings for your SEO standings. And I’m like, just, I ignore, I don’t care. My SEO standings do not affect my life at all.

ff (39:07.215)
Yeah.

Aidan Wachter (39:34.959)
Like, this is just out there so that if people do go looking, they find kind of a central point. But I’m not trying to be first in anything on Google unless you search my name, I guess.

ff (39:49.198)
Well, that’s the thing, right? mean, I see every day there’s artists that are talking about, I can’t paint because I have to be a content creator now. I can’t write my art, my poetry, my book. can’t do my shit because I’ve got to post on Instagram 800 times a day now. And it’s like, well, actually you don’t. And I think that’s like, that’s the weird thing, right? Like we’ve fallen into this thing. There’s so much, there’s so, there’s so much volume behind three times a day, three times a day. At some point it’s like, that’s one game.

Aidan Wachter (40:06.989)
You don’t.

ff (40:19.213)
You can play it and you can also not play it and you can play a different game and you can still play a different game and do your thing in the world and be fine. And I think that’s the, again, to me, that’s part of the loss of humanity that so-and-so said I need to post three times a day every day without fail so that Instagram loves me and then I can’t do any of the shit that I care about because I’m doing that. It’s like, well, there’s other options. There’s other options.

Aidan Wachter (40:47.199)
And it’s also interesting because you guys have been around the social stuff actually for longer than I would have. think I got started on it later because I was out in the woods. you know, it’s also like, you remember, do you remember how every fucking thing that you would see was like, here’s how to get to six figures? Like, that’s not something you really see anymore. But at least I don’t. But it seems like that to me is it’s like.

ff (41:05.379)
Yeah, for sure.

Aidan Wachter (41:15.577)
There’s this super weird thing. There’s an MLM side of it to this whole thing that it’s like, are you looking at creators who are anything other than influencers of other content creators as a business versus somebody who actually is doing something different than that? Because your approach can be incredibly different. Like you said, I don’t really…

I very rarely post anything related to what I do business wise, even though I do this stuff. This is how I make a living essentially at this point, but it’s not based on that. It’s not based on my Instagram popularity. And so yeah, you get videos of me feeding my squirrel and shit like that, cause that’s what I would like to see. So that’s what I’m going to share.

Andrew McGregor (42:02.174)
Honest.

Andrew McGregor (42:10.867)
Well, and I think, you know, there’s such a such an interest in being the best, be in the top notch, you know, and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, like, I think it’s most obvious in my like, like easy to talk about in my rock climbing life, you know, so I’ve I’ve been rock climbing.

since sometime towards the end of the 90s on and off. Big break when I had a kid, break for other reasons along the way, you know, but especially increasingly, maybe over the last eight years, I’ve been doing a lot of it and it’s because I like it, it’s because I have fun at it. It’s a great thing I get to share it with my youngest who likes to climb and…

On the one hand, it’s really great because I’m actually climbing at a higher level than I’ve ever climbed before, which is fun because it’s a puzzle and it’s a thing to play with. And it’s a thing to like, try and understand what my body does and what the wall is doing and whatever. But I, I listened to this,

Podcast and I’ll see if I can dig it out and put it in the show notes as well and they were talking about like the aggressiveness of the language of people Around like completing their climbs, right? You crushed it. You killed it. You know, blah blah It’s like being in a war going up this wall, you know and and I’m like, yeah, I don’t want any of that, you know, and I listened to like a variety of climbing podcasts and

ff (43:30.488)
you

you

Okay.

Andrew McGregor (43:53.809)
It’s tangentially interesting what the best people in the world are doing, but like they’re just so far removed from my experience or wherever I’m going to continue to climb at. Even if I continue to improve for the next 20 years, I will never be climbing the hardest climbs in the world. It’ll just never happen. And I don’t care. Right. And so like, you know, I like to, I like to refer to going climbing as getting my wigglers on the wall.

ff (44:03.48)
you

Andrew McGregor (44:23.847)
you know, get my fingers on the holds, right? I started referring to, you know, me and my kid Irene went through a big time of sort of experimenting with different ways of describing, you know, finishing a climb. I, because I boulder and sort of completing a boulder usually involves putting two hands on the last hold. We refer to it as booping it snoot. We also

ff (44:51.063)
Thank

Aidan Wachter (44:51.991)
hahahaha

Andrew McGregor (44:53.075)
We also refer to it as buying it flowers or getting a hug from the wall, you know, and like, you know, we just it’s just shift away from that stuff. Right. And it’s just like, you know, I’m not I’m not interested in I’m not motivated by being the best in the world. I’m motivated in something that’s much closer to the felt experience of doing the climbing and

Aidan Wachter (44:56.287)
You

Andrew McGregor (45:21.533)
That also kind of describes where I’m at when I’m working with folks, right? I’m so in the present and engaged in that moment. It’s not about anything else, right? And even when it comes to like the businesses and all this kind of stuff, you know, I remember the days when everyone was like talking six figure income and this and doing all that stuff. And I think that still goes on in a variety of corners for sure. And

And then I met a bunch of people from within the tarot communities who were, you know, I mean, I know a lot of the sort of most famous folks around, right. And it was interesting how many of them, and this is no diminishment of their knowledge or skill had jobs, had a partner who supported this thing, you know, and, and, or like you say that some of the folks are just like multi-level marketing, right?

by my by my course to teach you how to do this stuff and you will you too could make six figures because I’m making six figures teaching people how to make six figures right and yeah it’s just sort of it’s an interesting shift for me to to really just not be that interested in any of those things and kind of to what Aidan was talking about a bit sort of like well in the time that I have left what do you you know what do you want I’m like

ff (46:30.997)
you

Andrew McGregor (46:47.389)
I want to spend my time climbing with people I like having fun, getting outside, making arts, writing some books and you know, whatever else, but like, it’s not this sort of big impetus to be, to, be the best or to be attached to those ideas and even to sort of show people that stuff. I just want to invite people into my process almost, you know,

It’s kind of what this episode is. You’re all invited into our processes here. I hope you enjoy it. If you don’t enjoy it, well, fair enough. Go tell somebody else.

ff (47:22.131)
Hmm.

ff (47:30.407)
Well, what’s interesting is that I know so many people, whether it’s clients or friends, who have done all the stuff. They did all the stuff they were supposed to do and told to do. And some of them are the most famous people in their industries. And they built big things and made tons of money. And then they come to me and say, I’m miserable. I hate it. I don’t want to keep doing it. I’m going to have a breakdown. Help me burn this down and build something else.

Andrew McGregor (47:32.627)
ff (47:57.782)
And I mean, that’s not a one-off thing. It’s happened more times than I can count in the last couple of years. And I think about in my own life, my dad died when he was in his early 50s when I was a kid. I was like 18, 19, 18 when he died. And all he ever wanted to do was make art. He didn’t make art. He worked a fairly high level corporate job that he hated and was miserable in and was miserable to be around and then drop dead. That was it.

And as I approach 50, I think, what matters? Like what Aidan was saying, how much time do I have left? What do I wanna do? What do I care about? It’s not how many Instagram followers can I get? I don’t care. It doesn’t make any difference to me. Have I made the art that I care about? Have I supported other artists? Have I built communities? Have I done something that lets somebody that is alone in the world know that they’re a little less alone? Cool.

Andrew McGregor (48:52.937)
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

ff (48:52.937)
That’s great. rest of it, I honestly don’t give a shit about any of it. At all.

Aidan Wachter (48:58.85)
I think too, it’s also interesting, I had a random thought that kicked in that like, and Andrew may not even know about this, but like a lot of what’s going on in the United States is like a direct side effect of this change in corporate law called Citizens United that basically said that corporations were allowed freedom of speech in the same way as an individual.

which essentially allowed them to be duplicitous in the same way as an individual, which didn’t used to be the law. And it also allowed them to throw tons of money into politics, right? But I was thinking that one of the side effects of kind of the internet becoming the root of so much of people’s livelihoods is it’s also kind of forced people to turn themselves into that corporate entity, which isn’t really good for us.

I mean yes, it might help you make a living which is needed, but it’s not great for the spirit. And it’s funny because I was talking to somebody recently about, they said you know have like kind of a…

They’re commenting on my kind of obsession that I think that even though things were fucked in a gazillion ways as they always have been, because we’re humans, but like if you go back a couple hundred years, things were different and it’s because we didn’t have these crazy expectations. It was kind of understood that if you could make a living and feed yourself and your people and take care of your people, you were doing good. You didn’t have to be the best at something. You didn’t have to.

be known, didn’t have to be famous, you didn’t have to be celebrity. And I think that we have to find, you know, find a way for the, for folks to realize that this kind of thing that’s presented as the answer is just one answer. It’s not the answer.

Aidan Wachter (50:59.881)
You know, it’s interesting.

ff (51:02.162)
Well, I think that idea of

people feeling like I mean even using the language that that they’re a brand and they have to stay out you’re a human You’re not a brand. I mean, I guess you can be but then you turn yourself into this kind of one-dimensional Caricaturized version of yourself and going back to what I said a minute ago a lot of the people that I know that have built these six seven eight figure businesses have have done that and then they feel the weight to to continue that game and it it

They don’t want to, they can’t. The money isn’t worth that, trying to pretend that there’s some thing that they’re not or some version of themselves that they’re not. And somehow that’s not only become normalized, but that’s become the advice. And it’s like, do you think, again, it works in a short-term way, but how do you ever sustain that? And I don’t know many people, I mean, again, there are people, but I don’t know many people who do or would want to.

Andrew McGregor (52:02.921)
Yeah, well I think that you know like I think that like a lot of stuff has gotten sort of nudged in the wrong way and I think you know like a lot of people it’s like well you should you should be a brand I mean well you you are to some extent a brand regardless right but what are you gonna do with that and how you gonna do it right and the thing that’s

Like not that I think I’m perfect at any of these things, but like the thing, the choice that I’ve always made is I want to be the same everywhere because when I want, when people meet me, I want them to feel like there’s no disconnect from their experience of listen to my podcast and seeing me on the internet or watching me teach or any of these things. And you know, to me that, that is super helpful, right?

But yeah, I mean, I could, you know, I I’ve been thinking about like, what do I, what do I want to share? And I’m reminded of a time I was hanging it with a friend and he’s like, Hey, Andrew, you know, what, what initiations do you have? And he’s like, you know, esoteric and Masonic type things. And, know, and so I told him, he goes, okay. And as a lark, he went through and made a list of all of the titles.

Right? And he, you know, over some drinks, he, he thought it was really funny to read them all to me. Right. And, you know, it’s a long list, but I’m like, but also whatever, right? Like it’s not, it’s, it’s amusing, right? It’s not the thing. That’s not me. Right. And I think that, you know, maybe there is a piece that sort of tied to a lot of bigger stuff for me or bigger ways of being in the world. You know, I’ve been,

sort of sitting with gender stuff again, you know, and what is going on with my, what do I feel about my gender? What do I want to share about my gender? You know, what am I interested in in the world about that, you know, and like, there’s a way in which I’m often misperceived to my own inner experience, you know, and I remember an early conversation with my partner.

Andrew McGregor (54:28.595)
where she’s like, well, but you but you like you, you dress masculinely. And I’m like, well, I dress androgynously like a punk rocker. Like, okay. They’re like, well, what about your what about your what about your mustache? I’m like, well, my my handlebar mustache is a hat tip to surrealism. Like, there are these ways in which people perceive these cues, and they’re not

ff (54:36.466)
you

Andrew McGregor (54:57.501)
You know, I’m not saying that they’re wrong, you know, or they’re they’re off, but there are ways in which to me they they don’t mean the things they mean to other people. And, you know, what do we do with that is also interesting because I think it leads to a lot of my general apathy about titles, identity. I’ve actually, you know, for a long time, I used to say that my my gender was delicious.

And my orientation is delicious because I am delicious and I like people who are delicious. And that’s really all I need to know. More recently, because you know, a lot of language has shifted and new options have emerged. You know, and one of my kiddos said to me a little while ago, like, you know, maybe you’re gender apathetic, dad. Maybe that’s your thing. And I’m like, that is a great one. I am gender apathetic, right?

Aidan Wachter (55:33.5)
Ha ha.

Aidan Wachter (55:51.879)
I think that that’s, I think I’m with you on that one. I think I’m highly gender apathetic. Like, I just don’t know. It’s not really important to me. I used to try and figure it out. That really never happened. After a while, I got bored.

Andrew McGregor (55:57.768)
You know?

Yeah, right.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew McGregor (56:12.669)
You know, and of course none of this is to dismiss folks for whom gender is super important because awesome possum, you know, I love I love all the folks in all the ways. But I think there is a piece. Where, you know, I think that maybe all of us to some extent are kind of like me about, know, about some of these things where it’s, you know, for me, I’m more I’m curious about.

Aidan Wachter (56:17.842)
hell no. Yeah, not at all.

ff (56:17.842)
Yeah.

Aidan Wachter (56:23.515)
Yes.

Andrew McGregor (56:42.361)
the persons I’m hanging out with. I’m curious about the experiences of people I’m working with. I’m curious about the things that I’m just straight up curious about. And I’m not really looking to get anywhere or reach a definition or any of those kinds of things about it. To me, it’s just a process of trying to be present and engaged, you know?

Aidan Wachter (57:08.312)
Yeah, and I talk about it in the book some too that I’m working on now. I’ve talked about it before, but like the first thing that ever made sense to me in that context was the first time that I really kind of like identified as non-binary because, and I realized that that’s like a really core thing to me. And this, so I, and again, with you, I absolutely support anybody’s position wherever they find themselves and that changing over time as well.

Andrew McGregor (57:21.683)
Yeah.

Aidan Wachter (57:35.878)
But I realized that that’s kind of my thing, is I’m kind of not into binary anywhere. And it’s, because I see it so much as being like a control mechanism. Like if I gotta be good or bad, how do I do that? Because there’s things that are pretty on the edge. And if I do some of those, am I now bad? I don’t feel like I’m bad, you know? Or worse, when I was younger, I did feel like I was bad.

ff (58:05.871)
Thank

Aidan Wachter (58:06.118)
And so when I first kind of came across that concept around gender, it kind of immediately expanded out into everything else for me, because that’s the way that my mind works. And I was kind of like, yeah, like I don’t, like I know I’m not standard American male, but I don’t feel like I’m not in the right body. That’s just not an identity that makes sense to me.

You know, I have kind of like, think I have like modern human dysmorphia. Like, I think I’m really some forest creature from several thousand years ago that got trapped in this human body and is doing the best they can. That’s what I got going on. And that’s real. That’s not a joke.

Andrew McGregor (58:48.937)
.

Aidan Wachter (58:58.409)
But if we’re, it’s kind of like, yeah, it’s like everything being on this light switch of the light is on or the light is off. It’s like, well, that would be a sketchy fucking way for the world to work. If you’re driving down the highway and it’s noon and then it’s midnight, like, you know, your little light sensors, they would have had to figure that out when they first invented cars or everybody would be dead. But, you know, it would work now.

ff (59:12.018)
Okay.

Andrew McGregor (59:16.041)
you

Aidan Wachter (59:28.779)
Not in the 60s. And it seems like that’s such an interesting thing because it leads to so much polarization, obviously, because that’s the point of it. And that’s where I’m like super not down. And that’s where it’s kind of an interesting thing. And maybe for me, that’s part of that elder thing, too, is like really getting comfortable with like, you know, I’m not down with that and I don’t have a solution. But I can state that I’m not down with it and I’m interested.

ff (59:42.416)
and

ff (59:53.199)
Hmm

Aidan Wachter (59:59.141)
But I also don’t necessarily believe that there is a solution to that. It’s just there’s different ways of being, know, different ways of perceiving and that’s what I’m interested in. And so like you said, I don’t really care about your spiel. I want the people that I’m interested in, the people who I can kind of get to be like grandiose in this all that I can see their hearts or I can see their soul when I interact with them. And other than that, I’m not too concerned. It’s like, yeah, there’s shit you can do that I won’t hang around with you.

ff (01:00:22.119)
Mm hmm.

Andrew McGregor (01:00:22.558)
Yeah.

Aidan Wachter (01:00:28.676)
But if I can see that, that’s what I’m really interested in.

Andrew McGregor (01:00:34.163)
Yeah, it was, it was my birthday not too long ago and, had a party. It was great. And I got what I get is the consistent feedback from after I have a, a party, which is like everybody there was so nice. Every bike. talked to all sorts of people, you know, and like, got my friends from climbing and I’ve got my friends from the coffee shop and I’ve got, you know,

ff (01:00:53.121)
Hmm.

Andrew McGregor (01:01:03.177)
friends from spiritual community and wherever, right? Like, you know, people. And it’s because I, you know, I wouldn’t necessarily have put it the way you put it, but I think it’s kind of the same thing. They have a good heart, they’re kind, and they’re open and interested in connecting. And the amount of overlap that we have on a specific topic or many topics or whatever,

ff (01:01:21.492)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew McGregor (01:01:30.587)
is so much less relevant than how they are as a human being and their kindness and their engagement, you know? And like my kids are at the party and I know that number one, they’ve met all of these people at various points, but any of these people would just sit down if they got ended up sitting beside one of my kids, it’d be like, so what’s going on? What’s exciting? Tell me things. And they would just engage, you know? And they’re not there.

ff (01:01:52.515)
Yeah.

Andrew McGregor (01:01:58.333)
You know, like for whatever other reasons, which is fine if that’s your thing too, right? But like they’re just genuinely interested in other people. And to me, that’s the real magic, right? And I think that that’s the kind of, to some extent, almost the counterpoint of identity in some ways, right? You know, I don’t, I do have identities for sure. And I do have things that, you know, would fall outside of what I’m interested in or available for whatever, but

Aidan Wachter (01:02:07.044)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew McGregor (01:02:27.313)
I think that that sort of openness to connection and kindness to me, that’s the thing that I’m invested in looking in and everything else. I’m like, man, whatever. We’ll, we’ll find stuff to talk about. It’ll be good. You know? Yeah.

ff (01:02:41.71)
I feel like lately all I’ve wanted to do is get people together and make food and talk. Just human shit. Just bring your favorite food, tell me why it’s your favorite food, hang out, be a human being. That’s it. That’s literally it. And I think it’s exactly that. Like not too long ago somebody came to the house to do a thing, a repair thing, and we were talking and they very casually mentioned that they did photography. It like just a hobby.

Andrew McGregor (01:02:48.103)
Yeah.

Andrew McGregor (01:02:56.137)
you

ff (01:03:10.989)
I was like, shit, tell me about your friend. This dude immediately pulls out their phone and spends forever showing me picture after picture. It was one of them, I’d never met them, I had no idea, but it was the most human moment of this person who was there to do a thing and casually mentioned the thing they love and given the opportunity, just turned into a completely different, complete person, being able to show these beautiful photos that they’ve taken wherever in the middle of some beautiful…

It was amazing. to me, I’m like, this is the shift that matters. Just human people being human people together. That’s it.

Andrew McGregor (01:03:49.961)
All right, tell me, at this potluck of yours, what are you cooking for Baku? And why?

ff (01:03:53.101)
What am I cooking?

ff (01:04:00.341)
Okay, so I’ve been playing around with these kind of wacky meatball combinations, right? So my current favorite is that, and this sounds a little out there, but my current favorite is I make a beef meatball with chimichurri and blueberries in it, right? Something about the basil and the blueberry. Initially you’re like, I don’t know about that, but when you taste it, it’s amazing.

Andrew McGregor (01:04:05.789)
Okay.

Andrew McGregor (01:04:20.723)
Okay.

Aidan Wachter (01:04:21.73)
Hmm

ff (01:04:29.375)
It’s an amazing, amazing thing. was something with the beef blueberry chimichurri meatballs in it.

Andrew McGregor (01:04:29.417)
nice.

Andrew McGregor (01:04:35.593)
I love a good surprise meatball. It reminds me now that it’s cold, should make more of this. I was making mostly chicken meatballs with like a five spice kind of thing and making like a little foe with some noodles and stuff like that. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. How about you, Aidan? What would you bring?

ff (01:04:39.02)
Yeah.

ff (01:04:47.512)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Right on. Right on.

Aidan Wachter (01:04:58.431)
You know, I’m like, I’m the worst at this because I’m one of the I’m absolutely one of those like One of the ways that my neurodivergence comes in is that I’m actually more comfortable eating the same thing all the time My go-to right now is Like Chicken thighs usually because it’s juicier than like a chicken breast or something

Andrew McGregor (01:05:10.579)
Yeah. So what, what’s your go to?

ff (01:05:11.041)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Aidan Wachter (01:05:29.666)
Usually with like salt pepper garlic and then I have a collection of mostly like Asian influenced Spices or sauces in the fridge that I tend to mix up into some strange concoction like this is what it is tonight Let’s see what happens if you add the ponzu to this one

ff (01:05:46.157)
That’s awesome.

Andrew McGregor (01:05:48.521)
Go home.

ff (01:05:50.317)
You’re at a party or something.

Aidan Wachter (01:05:54.026)
And then let’s throw in some Louisiana hot sauce to give it a kick and maybe some of the gochujang, you know? And if I’m like feeling really wild, I’ll have some rice. If not, I’ll just have that.

Andrew McGregor (01:05:59.817)
Yeah, yeah.

ff (01:06:09.421)
That’s awesome. I love it.

Andrew McGregor (01:06:12.029)
fantastic.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I love cooking.

Aidan Wachter (01:06:16.962)
Yeah, it would be like I would bring the con the strange condiment collection like mix your own like no just a bunch of bottles with the labels washed off

ff (01:06:19.596)
Aiden shows up with all of the sauces. That’s perfect.

Andrew McGregor (01:06:21.107)
Perfect.

Andrew McGregor (01:06:26.761)
You know what I love about it’s one of the things that I love when I go and eat out is that the I like places that have a big variety of options of Condiments toppings, you know, like yeah, I would like you know, like I like those you go to the burrito bar and it’s like yeah I do want coleslaw my burrito tonight. I don’t know cuz it’s there and I saw it right like let’s you know, I’m never gonna have that many options at home cuz

ff (01:06:37.12)
Yeah.

ff (01:06:49.611)
Hahaha!

Andrew McGregor (01:06:55.229)
That’s not how my fridge works. But but I love that. And I’m picturing you with like a, you know, fancy caddy for them all too, right? You know, it’s like you you like

ff (01:07:03.773)
Yeah.

Aidan Wachter (01:07:05.161)
That would be, that’s what I would, if Fabica was like inviting us over, I would go and acquire the fancy catty with the unlabeled bottles of sauces. Like what are those? It’s like, I don’t know. There’s no label. How would I know? Yeah, watch it. Be careful with the ones that are purely red. Expect vinegar.

Andrew McGregor (01:07:10.835)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect.

I don’t know. That one’s that was a little this little spicy the red one. You know, I think the red one’s spicy.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, that’s so good.

ff (01:07:32.555)
Okay.

Andrew McGregor (01:07:34.217)
I love cooking and I love doing a lot of cooking when I have time and energy. So it’s kind of hard to pick a thing, but you know, we’re recording, was just like about a week before Christmas and you know, I’ll be having folks around the house over the holidays. And I was like, you know what I want to make? I want to make kind of Korean inspired tacos. That’s what I’m going to make, you know?

ff (01:07:58.247)
Mmm, wow.

Andrew McGregor (01:07:59.977)
some gochujang and whatever, slow cook the beef for a long time, break out the big cutting board and chop up a bunch of different green onions and this and that and other things so people can assemble what it is that they want. It’s like, you don’t want it spicy? Put some of the sour cream on it. you want it whatever? Here you go, right? Just the prospect of that. And when I have the time, one of the things that I really enjoy about

ff (01:08:22.943)
Yeah.

Andrew McGregor (01:08:29.779)
Cooking is those things that take time, you know, like I could throw this in the insta pot and just like bang it out But I’m like, no, no, that’s not what’s gonna happen I’m gonna like take it out. I’m gonna you know saute it and put it in the crock the Dutch oven, you know and like, you know do the do the deglaze the pan and you know fry the onions and other things in it and then just put it on a low heat in the oven for you know,

ff (01:08:32.735)
Yeah, for sure.

Andrew McGregor (01:08:58.737)
until we’re ready to eat whatever that is, you know, and just on I’m getting real hungry. But you know, yeah, real slow, right? You know, and to me, that’s one of the things. And that’s one of the things I love about eating with people, you know, like that slowness that can come from it too. It’s like, okay, let’s do this. Okay, let’s do that. Okay. let’s you know, I a mutual friend of ours, Teresa Reed, and I were in in New York City a while back. And

We literally stopped at like five or six different places for appetizers. know, we like have one thing and then we just be like, all right, that’s good for now. Let’s go. Let’s go wander around. Let’s go see some stuff. I think there’s a taco place over here. Let’s go have a taco. You know, just one. And then like next and next and next, you know, and it’s just, yeah, it’s just a way to savor and enjoy life, you know? Yeah.

ff (01:09:51.87)
Yeah.

Aidan Wachter (01:09:53.328)
One of the most interesting things that I’ve had experiences that I’ve had food wise again given my proclivities, especially towards being mostly carnivorous was on the bike trip that I took, which was like seven weeks in the mountains. Food was extremely sketchy. You would like, there’s a theoretical resupply and you would roll in and it’s literally like the convenience store in like the kind of

Andrew McGregor (01:10:04.178)
Yeah.

ff (01:10:17.449)
Okay.

Aidan Wachter (01:10:23.057)
sometimes scout resort centers sometimes open to families and they have like Spam and ramen and candy bars and you’re like, okay What can it what can I carry? I’m on a bike. My bike is already really heavy. What won’t go bad? I can’t do anything in a can because then I got the can you know and

just the wondrousness of the incredibly kick-ass New Mexican cuisine in some of those tiny town gas stations like some of the best New Mexican cuisine I have ever had like one place was so good. It was like at a Phillips gas station in this little town and I rolled in ate lunch there and was like

ff (01:11:05.873)
.

Yeah.

Aidan Wachter (01:11:19.999)
Checked their hours and went and got a hotel room across the street. We’re like, we’re staying here for like two days and eating their food. I don’t care. I have nothing better to do. This is my trip. I’m doing it my fucking way. My legs could use a break. We’re eating at this gas station for the next 48 hours.

ff (01:11:25.382)
It’s.

Andrew McGregor (01:11:25.737)
Yeah, so good. Yeah.

Andrew McGregor (01:11:37.021)
Yeah, yeah.

What What did you How did that trip change you? What came out of that trip for you because I know you’ve been talking about getting it on one of these trips for a long time You know and and then you did You know what came from that?

ff (01:11:40.051)
That’s awesome.

ff (01:11:43.913)
Thank

Aidan Wachter (01:11:58.738)
There were a few things. The first one was realizing that I do much better in things like that when I’m really off the beaten track. The first three weeks was not really on a bike route. It was not a route that there was much information on. And that was far and away my favorite part of it. Because I just didn’t know. I had no idea what to expect.

I learned that after kind of getting used to how heavy the bike was, because I really didn’t train for this at all, that it’s really, really fun to ride a fully rigid bike that weighs 90 pounds down these incredibly rocky, treacherous, rutted mountain roads at breakneck speeds, where you’re really like, I don’t think I should do this at faster than 30.

ff (01:12:32.969)
up.

.

Aidan Wachter (01:12:55.846)
really just insane but you realize like this is the best way to do this like it’s less jarring the faster you can do it because you’re just kind of cruising from the tops of the rocks instead of getting caught in between them and i didn’t really hurt myself after the first week so i was like good at that that was awesome it was really cool to just kind of go like yeah i can do this like again i’m 57 so and i’m not honestly in that great of shape and i’m not a serious cyclist or anything like that so

ff (01:13:08.841)
Hmm.

Aidan Wachter (01:13:25.659)
I hadn’t camped in 35 years and I really liked that.

One of the biggest things that I got from it was it was while I was out there on that first part before I knew I was going to connect with the mountain bike version that runs parallel to the Continental Divide Trail is I’ve always kind of separated for the last 20 years my

walk around, meet people from my magical life. And I was like, I think I’m done with that. And so it became really funny to have that experience of running into some person. And I didn’t do this with everybody, because it wouldn’t have been safe. anybody that I didn’t think was actually a risk would be like, what do you do? It’s like, you know, I write books on magic and witchcraft. And they’re like,

ff (01:13:56.424)
.

Aidan Wachter (01:14:23.581)
Fiction or nonfiction, which I didn’t think would be the other response. And so I’d be like nonfiction and they would be like, are these like how to books or about my gather how to books? And this clearly was not anything most people wanted more information about, but everybody was generally really cool.

ff (01:14:29.379)
Hey.

Andrew McGregor (01:14:29.416)
Yeah.

Aidan Wachter (01:14:51.738)
And a few very surprising people were like, interested, let’s talk. And ended up coming up with very cool dream stories or prophetic dreams or second sight related stuff. And the second part of that was also doing the same thing. It happened in the same first conversation. was like, as I’m having this conversation, I’m like, at some point it’s gonna come up.

in one of these conversations about kind of my.

queer identification, even though I’m generally in heterosexual relationships, and also my neurodivergence. What do we think about being completely upfront about all of that? And so I was. And that was really fascinating. It was very cool. I had a brilliant…

Andrew McGregor (01:15:31.88)
Mm-hmm.

Aidan Wachter (01:15:43.459)
meeting out in the middle of nowhere with a crew of thru-hikers on the CDT and it was awesome. It was like, okay, we have this very interesting little crew of queer, trans, neurodivergent people way out in the sticks that have been out here for longer than most people find comfortable. And it was just awesome. It was like, I didn’t know that when I opened my mouth and I didn’t know what would come out when I opened my mouth. And so I’ve been, it’s really been that. It’s like,

Andrew McGregor (01:16:03.08)
rights.

ff (01:16:07.439)
Hmm.

Aidan Wachter (01:16:12.839)
Kind of what you said, you want to be the same person everywhere. I used to be that and then about 20 years ago I stopped. And so it was really a return to that. Like we’re just going to figure out how to have these conversations be real even if I’m not super comfortable with it.

Andrew McGregor (01:16:30.505)
What what what brought about you stopping that do you remember?

Aidan Wachter (01:16:37.562)
Yeah, I ended up in a corporate environment that was really not cool. It was hyper conservative. Not in the frame that it is now, but… that just kind of transitioned to the relationships that I had after that. It was also what happened during my quiet time where I just wasn’t really hunting public information. And so was still doing stuff.

ff (01:16:38.63)
Okay.

Aidan Wachter (01:17:07.343)
but it was much quieter. And this is also kind of what I realized had led to the breakdown was that it’s like, can’t do that. It’s not correct. The vast majority of people I know now, and it seems really weird that the people that I’m running into at the gym or whatever don’t, and I’m not down, you know?

ff (01:17:09.572)
Yeah.

Andrew McGregor (01:17:29.929)
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think about sort of there was a time where I was, you know, through my 20s and into my early 30s, sort of super open with everybody about everything. And it kind of coincided with me for being in a lot of spaces where there was no definitions, right? Like it wasn’t attached to anything, you know.

ff (01:17:54.918)
Okay.

Andrew McGregor (01:17:58.631)
And not that I’ve sort of like necessarily been super closeted, but like, you know, but yeah, like hanging out with people or hanging out at the clubs or whatever, where it’s like, well, whatever, nobody cares about anything. You know, people care about you. People want to connect with you, but there’s no like pressure for any particular thing or a, you know, need to perform a certain way or be a certain way. And yeah.

I’m I, I’ve been working on reconstructing more of that, you know, one of the things was inspired by a post you made actually, Aiden, where you post about some guy at the gym was wearing a shirt that’s strong and pretty. And I was like, I need a shirt that says strong and pretty, you know, and so I made one and you know, I wear it wherever, you know, and it’s interesting because like, you know,

Aidan Wachter (01:18:42.779)
Yeah.

ff (01:18:45.446)
Thank you.

Andrew McGregor (01:18:56.705)
Nobody bats an eye at all, you know, like it’s funny Right. I mean maybe in some spaces people might bat an eye, but in general nobody bats an eye, you know But I do live in downtown Toronto, right and I do spaces that are generally more queer celebratory than not, you know,

Aidan Wachter (01:19:06.917)
Yeah

Aidan Wachter (01:19:16.975)
That was what was so cool about this trip is it’s like you’re rolling through very conservative parts of the country, like rural at best. You’re in and out of almost not wilderness because you can’t have bikes and designated wilderness, but what most people would think of as wilderness. And so these towns are not progressive in the least. And what I found that was really cool was it’s like,

And I know this, I knew this from my youth, but I’ve been so isolated in many ways living out in the country as I did for as long as I did. One of like my superpowers is like, I will say the thing that will get somebody to say the thing that they’ve never said to anybody ever. And there was a lot of that.

Andrew McGregor (01:20:05.469)
Yeah.

Aidan Wachter (01:20:11.606)
And one of the more interesting kind of gatherings that happened, I didn’t bond with the cyclists. They tended to be very driven. They were crushing it, but the hikers were not crushing it. They were being crushed and quite open about it. And we ended up at one gathering at a hiker hostel.

Andrew McGregor (01:20:22.504)
Yeah.

ff (01:20:30.116)
you

Aidan Wachter (01:20:35.468)
And like bonded with this young woman and her world kind of blew up right there. And it was really cool to also be talking about maybe elder space thing too, to go like, Hey, you’re not totally fucked. Like you’re not, you lost your ID, you lost your access to your money, you lost your access to resupply, but there are people here and I’m one of those people.

ff (01:21:05.22)
.

Aidan Wachter (01:21:05.338)
And so here’s a couple hundred bucks. Do whatever makes sense, whether that’s go home and get new ID, whether that’s trying to that through the mail, whether that’s just resupply and getting, I don’t care.

Aidan Wachter (01:21:20.376)
And if that was a lovely thing to be in the position to be able to do.

And then I think because somebody witnessed that, they kind of came out as having been on the trail for several years recovering or doing their best because they were not being well served by the VA kind of mental health programs to recover from a couple of tours in the Middle East. had very bad PTSD and they realized that they could do the outdoors but they couldn’t really do people.

ff (01:21:32.752)
.

Aidan Wachter (01:21:55.265)
And so I think that they witnessed that piece and so they began opening up to me. And it was very interesting the conversation that came out of that because they were connected to some of the stuff were connected. They’re not as practitioners, but they were just tuned in. Somehow they got tuned into that kind of other world stuff or the spirit stuff. They didn’t know what was up there, but they had a lot of stuff going on. And,

ff (01:21:59.748)
.

Aidan Wachter (01:22:20.899)
So I spent a lot of time talking to them as well. And again, this is that same crew is all in that place. And afterwards, somebody came up to me and said, you you’re really fascinating because you like totally were comfortable with both of these situations. You’re totally comfortable with this young woman completely melting down and were able to and knew what would kind of ground her out. You know, and then you were also totally comfortable with this person. The rest of us really kind of.

ff (01:22:29.06)
.

Aidan Wachter (01:22:50.317)
have been viewing is probably psychotic. And what is that? And I said, I don’t know. You know, it’s just, I can see them and they’re the same to me. They’re good people. That guy’s not psychotic. He’s been hurt really, really badly by what he’s experienced. And I don’t know that he gets back to something where most people will ever be comfortable being around him, but I am.

ff (01:22:59.909)
you

Andrew McGregor (01:23:02.781)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew McGregor (01:23:18.985)
you

Aidan Wachter (01:23:19.289)
you know, and I’m going to give him all the time I can while I’ve, well, I’m here, you know? and to me, it’s kind of what you were saying. It’s like, that’s all that I care about at this point is like, how do you like, I got shit I gotta do because the peeps are on me. Like this fucking matters and you’re going to do this. But other than that, it’s like, I’m just kind of here for, for what’s present.

ff (01:23:32.003)
Yeah.

Aidan Wachter (01:23:47.76)
And how do I be as supportive of people? Because it is hard. And it’s ignoring that it’s hard does not help. know, wallowing in the hardness and kind of glorifying that doesn’t either, but I think we have to be able to kind of go, let’s figure out how to connect as well as we can in whatever our situation is.

Andrew McGregor (01:23:51.667)
Yeah.

Andrew McGregor (01:24:11.331)
You know, and I think that that’s like a thing that I know we all do in different ways, you know, and just, you know, like, if you’re listening to this, like, don’t underestimate the power of a smile or like looking at people, you know, we have a lot of folks in Toronto who drive around collecting beer cans so they can return them and make whatever bit of money, right. And there’s this little like, short, old woman.

ff (01:24:24.144)
For sure. For sure.

Andrew McGregor (01:24:40.431)
on this like kind of kid-sized bike that’s how short she is and she’s got like bags and bags beer cans all sort of tied on and whatever and she crosses the street right where i am and i look at her and i smile and she looks at me and she gives me a polite smile and then she notices that i’m actually really looking at her and i really just lean into like that smile

And because I could see how tired she was and how, you know, like she was struggling a bit, maybe physically and whatever. And I just gave her this like big heartfelt open smile. And then she returned it. And that’s sweet. And it was nice for me. But even more important, I’m like, lifted that person’s spirit.

Maybe for 30 seconds, maybe for five seconds, maybe for the next hour. I don’t know. But like those human exchanges, that’s the magic, right? That’s the real jazz, you know? And I think that that’s, you know, with all the uncertainty and whatever we’re all dealing with these days, that’s how we’re going to get through that, right? Like, let’s lean into that, you know?

ff (01:25:35.554)
Yeah.

Aidan Wachter (01:25:35.96)
Mm-hmm.

ff (01:25:50.594)
You know, as we’re talking, I think about, probably all have different backgrounds, but similar in some ways, right? I think about growing up, you know, in the punk scene, growing up as an artist, growing up as a cult practitioner, all of it. I mean, I was constantly surrounded by people that could easily be looked at as outsiders and misfits and weirdos. And we were the same and different, but we all just huddled up and,

Andrew McGregor (01:26:16.361)
Yeah.

ff (01:26:20.02)
wildly different and people that were on the fringes and are still on the fringes and some further out on the fringes than they were but there was a humanity in that and to me that was the thing that was normal. There wasn’t any real effort because that’s just that’s what that was the environment and I think that builds a certain muscle again if you can maintain that humanity to smile at that woman on the bike to talk to that person that other people say is psychotic to to extend that because that’s it that’s the thing I mean

People literally die in the absence of that. And if not, we die when we let go of that part of our humanity. That’s the thing. think there is a, I don’t know, there’s something really beautiful. think years ago, I used to work at a piercing studio. was doing piercing professionally. there was an unhoused dude that came in and I don’t know, I don’t even remember what, he needed help with something. And he was covered in these tattoos. And I recognized all these occult symbols on his body. And I said, hey, tell me about,

this tattoo and that tattoo. And he kind of jumped back and I’m like, sorry, we don’t have to talk about it. He was surprised that I even noticed his tattoos. And then we went on to talk and he was showing me all these tattoos. He got this tattoo because of this daughter and that daughter. And by the time we were done in the piercing room, the guy was in tears because he said, I haven’t had a conversation with anybody in years, in years. Right? It’s like, what? You know, I mean, that was…

I don’t know 25 years ago. I still think about that guy. I wonder is he okay? Did he find a place? You know, I I still think about that constantly

Aidan Wachter (01:27:58.527)
Yeah, I think about those two people in particular from that trip. They’re the two that I’m like, it’s like, it’s, they’re absolutely in my kind of prayers to the ancestors and to the allies. Like let those people be doing good. cause it’s just, yeah, it matters. It’s, it’s all this stuff really matters. And it’s also interesting because it’s one of the things that. It doesn’t really matter how it happens. A lot of this stuff happens for me online.

ff (01:28:00.821)
Yeah.

ff (01:28:08.319)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Aidan Wachter (01:28:27.798)
More so actually than it does in the real world. I guess I’m not super outgoing. But I’ve had to learn, part of that trip was good with that because it did get me to really lean into that much more and be way more open to like, I think I need to say something here.

ff (01:28:49.728)
.

Andrew McGregor (01:28:52.489)
Hmm.

Aidan Wachter (01:28:55.382)
It’s a, which is an interesting balancing act. Cause again, I’m just, I’m very aware of that. I just kind of, did isolate for about 15 years and I’m having to learn how to walk out of that the rest of the way.

Andrew McGregor (01:29:13.161)
Yeah. Well, I’m happy you’re walking out this way.

ff (01:29:19.223)
Yeah, for sure.

Aidan Wachter (01:29:20.064)
Well, thank you.

Andrew McGregor (01:29:21.159)
Yeah, I miss the days of yore in the Jurassic period, know, right in the backs of stegosaurus and working our magic with mushrooms that no longer exist, you know?

ff (01:29:30.615)
Yes.

ff (01:29:37.066)
Yes.

Aidan Wachter (01:29:37.074)
Exactly the good ones. Back when they really did the thing.

Andrew McGregor (01:29:38.791)
good ones. If anybody tells you if anybody ever tells you that the mushrooms are today are good, you got to check out that Jurassic stuff. Work on your time travel friends work on your time travel.

ff (01:29:41.972)
Thank

Aidan Wachter (01:29:49.802)
Ha ha ha ha ha!

Andrew McGregor (01:29:53.469)
Yeah. All right. Well, maybe this is a good point to put a pause in this ongoing series of conversations that we’ve had until next time. But let’s do the where do folks find you? Folks want to follow up and be more in your orbits. Where are you hanging out these days?

Andrew McGregor (01:30:17.193)
I’m looking at you, Fabeku.

ff (01:30:18.367)
Fabicoo.com and in theory I’m on Facebook, not a ton, but I am on Facebook. I almost never look at Instagram. And I am on Blue Sky.

Andrew McGregor (01:30:34.002)
Aiden.

Aidan Wachter (01:30:34.183)
Yeah, I’m AidenWachter.com, though, and Instagram, BlueSky, and threads. But mainly I’m active inside my Patreon now.

Andrew McGregor (01:30:45.309)
Nice. Yeah. Well, and I’m at the Hermit’s Lamp on pretty much all the platforms. Threads and Blue Sky are the most personal for me. But, you know, I’m kind of the same everywhere, as I said. Also, I’ve got the shop in Toronto. If you’re in Toronto, come by the shop and check it out. And I send shit all over the planet, except for the EU, because they changed the rules and they can’t do it no more. But yeah, check it out and

We’ll be back with more. All right, thanks for tuning back in, folks.

Aidan Wachter (01:31:18.965)
Thanks for having us.

ff (01:31:20.147)
Yeah, thank you.