EP111 Divination and Connecting to Spirit with Nancy Antenucci

The podcasts first guest returns to talk all about connecting with spirit through movement and divination. We talk a lot about getting present, wrestling with tough stuff, magic, mediumship, getting messages and more.  

Be sure to check out the bonus episode for folks subscribed at the $5 level and above. Think about how much you’ve enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here.

Or you can grab it directly here.

You can find the 3 video pandemic series here

Nancy and James Wells have a new healing offering here 

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As always Andrew is here.  

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Andrew

Transcription.

Andrew McGregor  

Welcome to another episode of The hermit’s Podcast. I am here today with Nancy antonacci. And, you know, I had to go back and look and see when Nancy had been on before. And I, because it’s been a while, and I sort of lost track of it. And it turns out that in fact, Nancy was the first guest on the first episode of this podcast, which came out February 11 2011. So it’s been quite some time. You know, that we’ve known each other and, you know, obviously knew each other some before that. And, you know, and Nancy was again on in 2014, for Episode 18.

You know, but one of the things I love about Nancy is Nancy’s intense engagement in life and experimentation, you know, and my sense of Nancy, is that they’re always sort of open to trying new things and experimenting and sort of seeing where, where the spirit takes them. And you know, I think that during this time, I mean in every time let’s be honest, but certainly during these times, that can just be so helpful. You know, but I guess it’s been a long time since you introduced yourself to the folks who listen to this. Who are you Nancy, what do you what do you all about?

Nancy  

Oh, did you be before corn teen or after corn tea? Yeah, this is my and I love I love going by niche, you know, so just throwing out there and

I am, Holly. I am. Thank you for that. That was such a beautiful description. I feel like I’m kind of a Quaker mover move. That’s how I actually see myself as a Quaker mover. Like I if spirit moves me then do something then then Move whether that in a lot of times that is very physical and the older I get the need for embodiments getting stronger and stronger to actually make it in my body.

Unknown Speaker  

But

Nancy  

you know, I’m not a really good you know, I used to my first career and chapter in my life I was a dancer, a dance teacher, choreographer. And even then I used to teach people how to just move with the music and find their own style and be more fluid and then my other colleagues would be the ones teaching the form, you know, the tattoos, the plays the the practice of form, and then what I do is help them sing in the form and I really think I just kind of did the same thing with Tarot, I just, I can teach form but what I really am interested in is how you use Tarot to just sing, you know, to let it be a language with us. It really merges with your, all of your being including your body, which is something I’m avidly after right now.

Andrew McGregor  

For sure. I think that embodiment is so helpful at this time. Right? Hmm. You know, I think,

yeah, I’ve been

Nancy  

accessing various ways to sort of keep the emotional stuff from settling into my body and just keep it moving it right just, you know, kind of keep that stuff moving forward. Because I think that otherwise it’s gonna, you know, can easily settle in for the long haul, right? Totally. And, and, you know, growing up as with dancers and professional dancers, I did wonder the people that go to gyms, almost maniacally This is probably a great exercise for them to do the opposite, which is no don’t keep moving in sweating and not feeling anything, you know, like, now you’re gonna probably have to sit down Some emotions that are probably really good. I find this whole thing. Here’s a couple things that I’ve noticed for me, Andrew is one is that like from nine to one, I’m actually I have some pretty good focus them. But around one I just is like this collective fog kind of rolls in. And I know it’s not my fear I actually named it one day I went that is not mine that is but that’s the collective coming in. And sometimes it’s fear sometimes it’s it’s anxiety, it’s low, like, low chronic anxiety, not even pitching, you know, and and so then I have to do something physical, I have to stop, I can’t get away from the screen, go walk my dog or do something, you know, with the video, like some movement thing. And I realized, Wow, that’s pretty fascinating that we’re all connected to each other and what I really needed to focus on from my own sense of flow and well being is that I just think Earth is happier now than she has been in a very long time. You know, like, I actually feel like the way I felt when I was a kid. Because Earth feels like no one’s in our skies. Now, no one’s dinner waters. No one’s fracking her. She’s like, taking a nice, deep rest, you know, and I think that she’s starting to replenish some of us. Not all of us, but some of us who, you know, I mean, at heart, really, I’m a pagan. So it’s just I remember one time, I was listening to john Michael Greer, and he said the problem with being a pagan. He said, we’re really the religion. We’re a religion that can really take this next step because we actually do see Earth is our church. So it’s

Unknown Speaker  

He said, But

Nancy  

are you willing to die for her? Are you willing, you know, to put your body on the line for her, you know, and it’s not that he was asking he wasn’t thinking we should die but that we’re that committed that we’re that we would serve her that much, you know, and I thought that was interesting because now we are dying but it’s like, but but from a different from a different stream and I gotta tell you, Andrew and I know this is like I I have seen five future quarantines. So I don’t know if maybe there’s going to be a mini one in the fall or we’re just talking five for the rest, you know, over the next 40 years. I’m not sure but they’re kind of the message just came in really loud and clear to me one day and just said, you know, you might want to really learn what you’re doing right now and what works and what doesn’t work. You know, because it was To help you in the future?

Andrew McGregor  

Well, I definitely think that it behooves us to be ready for more. Right? Yeah. How do we, how do we set ourselves up to be able to survive and to hopefully even thrive? during these times? Right, you know, right. I think that that’s, you know, very, very complicated, right. You know, I mean, is, you know, I see a lot of people posting stuff like, I don’t want to go back to the old normal, I want, you know, whatever, right, like, right. You know, better nature, basic income for everybody, more interconnectedness, less consumer, whatever it is. Right. Right. You know, and I think that’s, I think that this moment allows us, perhaps the opportunity to make some shifts around things. Absolutely. And I think that one of them is how do we how do we use People, you know, increase our resilience, right? So we can be ready for things that happen like this. And how do we as communities and cities and countries and whatever, do the same for our people, you know, and then finally, what can we continue in the direction of when it comes to nature, right? Because I know a lot of, you know, a lot of the posts about that stuff have been, you know, there’s some, there’s some stuff where people have said things that just aren’t true. Right. You know, and there are some very funny ones as well. You know, I saw his picture of a cow standing in the surf and they’re like, Look, we’ve stepped away and now cows are returned to the ocean.

Nancy  

I remember that one. I thought that would really suck. All right.

Andrew McGregor  

But yeah, it’s interesting, you know? Well,

I have I’ve been

doing a lot of bike riding During this time, because bike riding for me seems like a relatively, you know, inherently social distance activity.

Yeah, totally. And,

you know, because I’m, by myself half the time when my kids aren’t with me, I seem to get a house at a certain point, you’re like, I gotta, I gotta just not stare at these walls for a while. And so I’ve been going to a place in Toronto called elastic spit. And, you know, I mean, I’m always I do so much work with, with the land and place and so on that it’s hard to say, is it different now for me than it was two months ago when I was there, or last fall when I was there. And, and, you know, it’s so hard to kind of keep track of those things. But that said, I’ve been engaged with a lot more wildlife when I’m there. And I think that part of that is also I’m often writing either In the dark or at sunset, right? Yeah, so there was there was the chunky as chunky as beaver ever wobble across my path the other day. You know, I saw a coyote there for the first time, which I had not seen before.

Wow. You know,

Nancy  

so because we’re just not out in numbers so animals are

Andrew McGregor  

Yeah, right maybe they’re around maybe they’re being a little more adventurous right.

Nancy  

So do you consider this time do you consider this a tower time because I’m starting to see it more like a wheel of fortune time.

Andrew McGregor  

You know, I, I struggle to make sense. So, you know, in the last two years, I got divorced. I had my business burned to the ground, or restart like my business. I spent most of last fall The facing the closure of my business because of inability to get insured again. And now this has happened. So I don’t like I don’t really know, you know, and I don’t. And I don’t tend to think of. I know, we had a lot of questions about archetypes and energies archetype in the cards of this time. Yeah. Right. And I think you’re talking with that can be really helpful. Mm hmm. And I know for me that there certainly have been times where I’ve really looked at that. But the last two, three years have just been a perpetual cycle of disruption on some level for me. Right. And so I’m kind of like, I don’t know, it’s just more it’s a different you know, so there’s like, what did I do deserve this? You know? Well, life is just life and you got to persevere. Right? So

Nancy  

yeah,

well, I I had gone just kind of gone along with the tower thing, although to me 911 the The the American attack that felt like tower to me because it was towers that got hit and you know, people weren’t flying out of buildings, so it was very literal. I remember watching it and I thought to myself, Oh my God may I never see a gigantic tarot card again. You know, it was it was frightening to see it in real time in our time. But a friend of mine said, she called this the great unwinding. And I went, oh man, that is exactly and then all of a sudden I got the wheel of fortune in my mind and it went Ah, it just shocked you know, and I just thought Oh, that it you know, I just but then the wheel of fortune is. It is actually to me, I tell students but a lot is there are certain cards that you just really aren’t going to get until you You experience them. They’ve you just their theory, they’re, they’re this lovely placeholder until you get into that landscape. And I’m actually starting to feel like, you know, if I had to have a wheel of fortune experience, this would be it. You know, that everything the whole world just stopped. You know, and yeah,

Andrew McGregor  

I think I think for me, I feel like it’s, I see that for sure. Right. And I think that that Yeah, you know, some somebody needs to go in there like the tin man and put some wd 40 on that thing and get it going again, right?

Nancy  

or not, but you know, if don’t inject it,

Andrew McGregor  

right. But for me, I also think of it as kind of a call it like a like a lover’s moment. You know, like for me, especially being a sort of a more sigh, Turner, Marseilles centered reader, right. The lovers card is one of ambiguity, right? And I think that This is, you know, in such a time of unbelievable uncertainty, right? Yes. So like, you know, we think we’re, we’re handling it, we think we know what’s going on. You know, in Canada, it looks like the numbers are headed in a good direction. You know, it looks like maybe I’m gonna get to start to make some changes from this sort of level of restriction we’re at maybe over the next month, you know, but it’s really an unbelievable level of uncertainty for the foreseeable future. Right? Because, right, are there eddies and flows are their second wave, third wave, whatever. Right? What do you know, I was reading for a client today and I’m like, you know, they were worried about the short term finances. I’m like, I don’t see that for you. What I see is what’s the what’s the change in the economy that impacts your work a year from now? You know, exactly. And, you know, so like, there’s this huge uncertainty, but what’s This is gonna look like, and we’re not going to know, until when, you know, like, in 1929. You know, what did they think they knew? Right? In 1930 What did they think they knew? You know, and it’s not really until you get to kind of the end of World War Two that you can sort of, you know, and then look back on that see that, that influence of that whole you know, almost 20 year period, right?

Nancy  

Yeah.

Andrew McGregor  

Yeah. I love that like that but you know,

Nancy  

yeah, no, but I do well if it is a profound shift in I mean, you know, again, if we can if we can really see like I I there’s a couple things that have really dawned on me in this time, which is one is I really did not know that I was a workaholic. Hmm, I didn’t know that. And, but I grew up my childhood home. We were alone together. Other. And so I did not realize I recreated that in my own home. And so what I did for intimacy was work, you know, so I was far more intimate with strangers, and I was with the two people in my kitchen. So that was really, you know, and I know a lot of people are thinking about work and what am I going to do? And of course, that old capitalistic thing comes in and goes, Oh, I have all this time now. I should be doing this, this, this and this. And I realized, No, you know what I need to clean my act up is what I need to do. Like I need to be like kind of open to a new way of being instead of the way I was trained. Now, I also have just really enjoyed, for some reason, not cooking or baking under pressure. I didn’t realize how big a deal that was. But it’s like before I remember how stressed I’d get into cutting carrots because Like I have 20 minutes to make dinner before my client, you know, and now it’s like no, he does. Like what song Am I gonna listen to? While I cut my Garret? I’ve been going to traffic a lot, by the way. I love I’ve been I’ve been really dipping in deep to old 60s music.

Andrew McGregor  

Nice. Nice. My record collection has definitely been increasing during this time.

Nancy  

Oh, totally. Yeah.

Andrew McGregor  

Yeah, I think it’s interesting you know.

I

find myself more settled into the situation now for sure. But it’s but my life is not. I don’t feel that settled in is more comes from a resignation and an acceptance of it. Then Okay, now it’s right. Right cuz I’ve been kind of like fighting That fight that you’re talking about for a long time, right? Like when the when the shop burned down last year. I was like, Alright, so I had like two year goals to adjust my workload in certain directions. Yeah. And so I’m going to start that now considering I’m rebooting from nothing. Right. And so, there’s been a lot of that going on for a while for me. Yeah. And, and, you know, what’s really been the challenge for me, it’s just been this sort of, you know, baseline of sort of being a solo person household, you know, so it’s full time, full time solo parents for half the week, with with all of that, which is not relaxing, you know, I mean, so, but not relaxing, you know, right, and then trying to float in the rest of the stuff around that. So it’s actually kind of compressed things in a certain way that weren’t compressed before this for me, because, yeah, more float my time. And, you know, and so, yeah, so it’s interesting, you know, I mean, yeah, that that said, I did start meditating again since this started. They’ve been on my radar for a while I just was like, well, I need my coping skills. So I’m going to turn to that, you know, absolutely. You know, but it’s like, yeah, it’s interesting. So, I think I think it’s one of those things at this time, too, right? Everybody’s in different situations. Right? You know, yes. Everybody’s circumstances is very, very different. Right? Like, you live with how is that situation? Do you live with anyone? Are you you know, separated by quarantine from the people that you would like to be with, you know, all those kinds of things.

Nancy  

Do you have any cash net or are you actually kind of like getting nervous about eating? Yeah. You know, that that, you know, It’s our food lines are really getting pretty phenomenal here.

Andrew McGregor  

Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it’s I went to the grocery store. Not too long after they opened today, there was no line. The last week when I was there in the afternoon, took 25 2025 minutes to get the store, you know.

Nancy  

So yeah. And I was just with a little bit of reading that I am doing about what later might look like is there’s such a big disturbance in our food line right now that we will feel that next winter in spring, in terms of just meats are in beans for some reason. You know, so those things might be really, that might be a real and I got to tell you, it’s really hard for a lot of Americans, not some but a lot to not be able to get something you know, so that consumer is I just, I just pray for that. I honestly pray that we’ve been Become way less consumer and way bigger citizen.

Andrew McGregor  

Do you think No, do you think it’s gonna happen?

You know, I mean, I’m well it could it could reshape

Nancy  

so it could ricochet, you know, it could ricochet like the the roaring 20s you know, like it could be people going to the other extreme you know when we’re out but I I’m also talking to people in in there it’s not punitive they’re actually realizing God Almighty, I have a lot of crap in my house that I haven’t paid attention to. Or, like we have more we work so hard to consume more that now I do I have, at least the people I’ve been talking to are kind of realizing I don’t need to go shopping. I don’t need the next thing I don’t need, you know. They still want their haircut But no, but other than that, you know, it’s like, women were getting their hair done. During World War Two, though, I mean, it was, you know, seriously, that was still happening, you know, so it’s, you know, I guess a girl’s got to do what a girl’s got to do bottom line, but you know, I already enlisted

Andrew McGregor  

my 10 year old to cut my hair. So yeah,

Unknown Speaker  

yeah.

Nancy  

Well, thank God, I was actually thinking a grown mine out anyhow. So you know, there we go. Let’s do it.

Andrew McGregor  

So I’m curious about you talking about the stuff you’re receiving around this and, and to be honest, I actually don’t divine around this at all myself, right. It’s like, I went to my elder and got a reading within my religious tradition. And, for me, that’s my guiding principle. I’m leaving the rest of it all, you know. But I’m curious for you. How are these things coming to you? Are they coming while you’re with the Kurds? Are you meditating are you to dance in the moving around and You know, that spirit comes down and you come back to your senses. You’re like, Oh my god, there’s a message written on my hands.

Nancy  

As long as it’s not on my forehead, right now, you know, usually actually meditation. So after a meditation actually though the end, the only real divination I got was that five quarantine thing just and this may be, I’m not actually even sure if they meant five more or if this was a series of five. This was part of five, but that came flying in and I was actually just washing dishes doing that I didn’t even ask for that. You know, that just went came in and just, you know, but if I really want to open myself up for messages it would be during meditation when I’m working with my my spirit teacher. That’s when it would happen. It’s usually very personal like They’re just trying to help me navigate but every once in a while, I’ll get a far bigger picture. I don’t really ask I just leave myself open, right?

Andrew McGregor  

So you just coming if it comes, it comes. If it doesn’t it doesn’t,

Nancy  

right. Like I said, Quaker, I’m a Quaker. I’m a, I’m a Quaker pagan.

Andrew McGregor  

How did you come to the Quaker bakery? How did you? How did you

Nancy  

Quaker pagan? Well, it all started with Catholic you know, so, grow up Catholic you are surrounded by incense and theater and grand grander and black and white evil, good shame. You know, it just had all the makings of good theater. And I still really have a very close affinity to Jesus. I just like got rid of his family because I just divorce the rest of them. So But the pagan came in actually that I’ve always had this love of earth I remember one of my favorite memories and I’ll do it sometimes there’s um, have you ever heard of the Taoist meditation called the inner smile? Sure. This happened during an inner smile and I had forgotten about this memory, but my body didn’t. So when I did the meditation, it came flying up, which was so neat, but I remember like six years old, I lived in Central Pennsylvania, we had a big yard in the back and a big crickety sidewalk. And it was right before it was gonna rain. It was dark, it kind of starting to get dark, but it was a summer it was cool in a summer day in that with the sun going behind the clouds, it actually felt cool. And I remember laying on the sidewalk on my back and the hot cement felt so good but my hands and feet were in the grass and I just laid there and Mom yelled at the from the back porch and said it’s gonna rain pretty soon. And I just said, Can I can I stay and she let me stay. So I just stayed there and it started raining and it was just I felt like I just like the earth just ate me up is really what it felt like just disappeared into it. So I loved moments like that with Earth and growing up Catholic Earth and planet and body had nothing to do with anything, you know. So, after a while, I realized, you know, I need that I need that. You know, so it’s, you know, and that’s a big, big thing for me. I mean, I had gone through some really horrible persecution as a young girl. I used to sit on the side of my desk. I used to sit on the side of my chair so Jesus could sit on the other side. Like, honest to God, Andrew, I saw him I saw him like several times. times insurance and shit I would yell Hey Jesus, like my mom anyhow

Unknown Speaker  

no and

Nancy  

you know I said I gotta stop talking to my invisible beings you know because it’s

Andrew McGregor  

but it’s a

Nancy  

it’s kind of my vision or my mission. If you say mission it’s more like my vision to help people really embrace whatever divinity or non divinity they want to embrace because, you know, those that that persecution when I was that young and it got pretty brutal, not physical, that very mental, that mental persecution meant that I would offer religious freedom to and spiritual freedom to whomever and whenever that could come up, right, you know, so as a reader, and you know, I had A wide variety of Buddhist Catholics I love I love how people approach divinity or not, you know, like actually, for people under 40 I just automatically do not mention god or goddess. I just don’t don’t even bring it into the conversation, you know, because they have a very different way of looking at the world and Divinity in naming divinity at least my experience with the Peeps I’ve been reading for it’s like, that’s not a high priority. Giving them faces, you know? I remember I still you know, we’ll never forget my son when he was about seven came up to me and he said, you know, Mama, I’m just not gonna get into this invisible giant shit. Or he didn’t say shit, but he said No, and I say

the first you know what’s true. me weird about that statement that was giant. I went

Andrew McGregor  

right off my chair.

Nancy  

Just think, yeah, but uh, Krishna, I never would think Krishna would be two inches tall. I’ve been kind of assuming he’s gonna be a little bigger than me. And I said to him, Hey, you know, if you believe in love, and if you act in love, or if you have your own code of love, we’re good. That’s it, man. That’s it. So just there you go. You’re set. Yeah.

Andrew McGregor  

Yeah, I was fun to find it fascinating. I love hearing what other people are spiritually up to or religiously up to, you know, because

Yeah, because

it’s, it’s always so interesting to me to hear people’s ideas, people’s language and so on, you know,

Nancy  

calculate

Andrew McGregor  

and you know, as somebody who practices really fundamental, like, I’ve become really traditional over time. Right? You know, yeah. My reshow lineage and my research tradition is, is very traditional, very orthodox, very structured, and so on. And, you know, it’s, it’s so I remember not being this way, but I no longer remember what that’s like, you know, so even when I’m, you know, in the woods and speaking to, you know, one of the racists who lives there, you know, the other day I brought some offerings and so on traditional prayers, you know, traditional the Kumi invocations and all that it’s all very, very structured, right? It’s just like, yeah, and, and the stuff that comes from that there’s lots of organic stuff that comes from that. But it doesn’t usually come without the without the struck with it the structure. You know, just why I’m so curious about, you know, for you, it’s like us comes in while I’m doing dishes, it’s like never happens. Right? I do really, you know,

Nancy  

I do, I do crave that structure sometimes. So just that, that. And even was even playing with the idea of Vespers, you know, so trying to do Vespers at certain times, or just trying to add the prayers, but it always really got and it just always comes back to my body. It just does. My body is my church. And if if I can go in it if I can allow her to move in the way she wants to move, if I can really listen to my heart and how it wants to be in my body, and not just my mind. That’s that’s the that’s the temple that I’m,

Andrew McGregor  

yeah, fascinating. So So I mean, I feel like this is, you know, a great time to sort of center Adams question here, right? Yeah. What’s, what’s this relationship between divination and art, which, you know, as I understand for you is primarily about movement. You know, What is the relationship between

Nancy  

the two? And by the by and I didn’t even mention this to you, but I’m actually writing a new book. And it’s going to be about Taro rituals. Nice. And I actually face this head on. So when Adam asked, I went okay, yeah, that I can’t wait to get the book out. It’s only halfway through though, which is, to me. Both divination and specifically Tarot and theatre. One of the first things that really needs to happen is a thought I wrote it down so that I didn’t mess this phrase up because I love this phrase is the suspension of disbelief. So you’re sitting there waiting for the curtain to open and that one is usually one of the first things that would happen is lights would turn off, and then the curtains open. And I do think that’s actually the same thing with this. A nation that with creating sacred time or going into that space, you’re saying, I am spirit having a human experience we’re in spirit time it is different. So that suspension of your own ego and control of I can only understand what I see or hear is big. And it’s a pretend reality. It is we’re gonna watch a whole show in theater now which is a pretend story even if it’s a story about something that really happened it’s still pretending because they’re doing it you know.

Unknown Speaker  

Now so

Nancy  

and I think the same thing with Tarot it’s a pretend story it’s your but I don’t I don’t actually minimize pretend I think pretend is very powerful. You know, I like cuz I would have clients when I first was a young teachers starting out, people all the time would say, Well, wait a minute. What What’s the difference between this and just pretending and I said, oh no pretending the first step first you pretend then you walk down that aisle all the way there’s a lot of doorways in that corridor you know So pretend is one of them. And you know when I mean pretend I think that automatically for a lot of us except for people to really like just not going to come here no matter what you say. Is you you kind of go Oh, well then I guess it doesn’t matter and that’s when your ego to me that’s when my ego and my consciousness goes well then screw it. I’m not gonna mess with this and it’s like, Thank you go sit in the corner, please. You know, so the rest of us can play, you know, or move or do what we need to do. Also, with the Tarot is just their stories. It’s all about stories, isn’t it? And each one each card is a story. It’s It’s its own set. It has its own actors. It has its costumes. You No, it has its colors or its symbols or its words, you know, and that’s theater. That is theater, you know. So I think I think that in fact, I got Andrew I tell people all the time Listen, if you really want to hide magic, just do art. Because three fourths of the people are going to see it as entertainment or something interesting to think about in a fourth of them are going to go, Oh, I really felt the energy. You know, like, yeah, you know, I got that, you know, that was whether you call that demonic or not, it doesn’t matter to me. It’s like if my energy can shift your energy, that’s magic.

Andrew McGregor  

So I guess I’m curious about what’s the what’s the difference between experiences that emerge from our unconscious or from from you know, visions and so on. And how do you differentiate if you do between those kind of creative processes that can be deeply insightful? And the presence of these spirit beings that are external to us? Or do you differentiate between?

Nancy  

Me? That’s a great question. I actually I would probably have to say I don’t I don’t differentiate, I think I mean for years now if people have been asking me what my religion is, because if you if I get a client who’s like, okay, but where are you really coming from with all this? Which I think is a good question. I actually think that would be really helpful to ask your reader what they believe in so you know what their filter is. And I’ll say creativity, that is my spirituality. Because I just know that it went on on path, Andrew, when I’m really on path, I can Create. When I’m not on path I don’t create, you know, so that that’s all. That’s the only parameter I really need. I think too, there’s that I do think sacred time makes a big difference, though. I mean, if I were just to dance or just move to really good music, I don’t always create sacred space first. And even though there’s profound insights, that is kind of me creating, there’s a difference when I create sacred space when I open space, then I am trusting that I’m channeling other spirits or a bigger spirit like magician.

Andrew McGregor  

He sort of you set up the space in a way to create, yeah, how much you want, right? Right,

Nancy  

right. If I just need to loosen up or just move through myself and just see what my body needs to tell me. I don’t always create sacred space. But if I do want to If I really want to reach out or if I ask for blessings like Alas, Goddess to bless me in something or help me if I’m too scared to do something, then I’ll create sacred space. Which is actually to me is just asking for all time to exist together. To me sacred Oh, yeah, it’s it’s just that simple for me. It’s just past, present and future all together. They’re not linear. It’s they’re circular.

Unknown Speaker  

Mm hmm.

Andrew McGregor  

Interesting.

Yeah. I find

you know, and especially because, like, I have a lot of clients who come to me who are sort of magically inclined and sort of struggling with often sort of this, these balances of like, what is what is internal and you know, and problematic and what is external and problematic, you know, purely spiritual level, right, like, yeah, and and so, you know, I’ve spent a lot of time probably people come to me because I’ve spent a lot of time really sort of cultivating a precision of perception around those distinctions, right. So, you know, I feel a bit like you and I are at like, far ends of a spectrum here, which is a hold on to me. Right? Right. Right. Because for me, it’s like, sorry, who’s showing up? Do we check their credentials at the door? How do we know for sure it’s them, right? Why are they here? Did we invite them? No. Why do they do that? They didn’t get the invite did not come to the you know, so I saw

Unknown Speaker  

and I’ll just go love. Yeah, no, exactly.

Nancy  

Are you here that you must be because there are some love input? You know, one time Andrew, I heard myself in this story so much that that there were an old Buddhist story where, you know, a monk, the monk would walk, if He even went to the headmaster, the sifu if he went into the woods, he would still carry his block. And that this is a block that he would, you know, Inc, students that you know, finally when they got to a certain level, and not all of them would even with a lot of study, but you know, he would mark them or mark their hands that they are now you know, at a certain level, but he would bring this block, even if he took a walk in the woods, because it’s some madman walked in and just looked at him. You know, he would know it. Yeah, yeah. It’s like, oh, okay, I’ll just stamp you even though you didn’t do the training. You know, and it’s not. Well, I am an Aries. So I do have an ego the size of a mountain. You know, another But see, we like that. Aries, Aries, love our ego. We are like oh, we love being here. This is all mine. No, it’s like we are the babies of the zodiac. So we have a big ego but I do think I have gotten some of the most amazing things in my life just by stumbling into it and just trusting that I should be there. You know that a lot of doors open for me that way. Mm hmm. Yeah. That’s why I feel like a lot of us, especially with a spirituality, it has to be a certain thing that I’m doing now. I’m not. You are a very dedicated priest. I mean, you are you have thrown yourself fully into commitment here. I’m talking more about the people that are just kind of like on a boat trying to figure out where their spirituality is, if anywhere. And I’ll just say there’s no level of perfection. You just need to, you know, to commit to being on it on the path, you know, and then the path will emerge more and more for you.

Andrew McGregor  

Yeah, for Sure, I think, you know, I wrote this down for somebody a long time ago. And it comes back in moments like this, you know, people

people, like, I remember, like having this conversation with somebody about, like, their true will or destiny and you know, like, all this kind of stuff. And, and I’m like, Listen, only the road knows which car is yours. So just start walking on the road. And eventually the road will tell you, and you’ll figure it.

Nancy  

I love that. And

Andrew McGregor  

yeah, like, it doesn’t start with it doesn’t start with commitment or as commitment necessary for many people in its way. Right. Although I would go so far as to say you’re deeply committed just in a different direction. Right? Right.

You know?

Yeah, I think it’s fascinating. I’m wrote I’m always so curious about these. What is

Nancy  

this Taro ritual book that I’m writing is a little scary in that the first book I wrote just wasn’t the things that I teach about Tarot you know, and and a very An intuitive approach to Tarot. And I knew they were tried and true. I taught these things for 30 years this was the other thing that was happening for 30 years was just the way that I do rituals and how I bring Tarot into my everyday life and into other people’s lives. So this one feels way more vulnerable because it there’s a nakedness with it is the best way I can describe it, and it’s in which I am loving now, but before the book can go out into the world, I’m going to need some kind of ritual where I I’m just going to call it the thick skin which was like,

Andrew McGregor  

you know, like,

Nancy  

nope, this isn’t the way a lot of magicians work, you know. So this is a different way of working here. So

Andrew McGregor  

I’m reminded of the, the same from my childhood, you know, I’m rubber you’re glue whatever you say that sticks to you.

Nancy  

I get a really need that

Andrew McGregor  

sure. Yeah, it’s so funny Are you never know, maybe you won’t. People will just welcome it and be like, you know, the right people will just walk away.

Nancy  

That’s true. And I you know, when I, when my first book went out I just, I was thinking, oh god, I need to learn about marketing I need to do this I need to do that. And the best advice I got was Nancy, your book has its own magic, it will go to the people it needs that need it so you have to trust that and then you also have to coax that, you know, but don’t you’re not leading it, you’re supporting it. And I thought up Okay, I’m gonna do the same thing with this book, but I’m already feeling this sense of boy. I’ve been dying for different rituals and how do people do things? After leaving the Catholic Church you better believe it. I love rituals. I love the incense. I love the the theater the sacred theater. But it’s very To me it’s been very masculine you know, it’s it’s been the writer weight or it’s been the it’s it felt really wherever I went, it just was all the same rules and everything except there everyone’s standing instead of sitting in pews. You know and not I’m not taking away from those rituals and in fact I kind of, wouldn’t it be nice if I could do them like that but i can’t i don’t do them like that. I’m and in fact, the image I have really is my high priestess and my higher font are sitting together in the higher fonts like trying to get her to make it accessible to the mainstream.

Andrew McGregor  

Like kind of goes against everything that the High Priestess is

Nancy  

exactly she she’s going along with it because he’s a good flirt, but that’s about it.

Andrew McGregor  

Yeah, you know, my, my, my sense of the High Priestess is like, well, if they’re worthy, they’ll get it if they’re not, not maybe next lifetime.

Nancy  

That’s right.

Andrew McGregor  

Like, but attendance is down, we got to get attendance. You know,

Nancy  

this does not make sense. It has given me a whole different appreciation for the higher font, because he just is all he wants is templates. That’s all I wanted. I just need a template. And I like I’m actually starting to enjoy creating templates now. Nice. Yeah.

Andrew McGregor  

See, I’ve been I’ve been working with the Hierophant under the under their Marseille name as the pope a lot, right. Oh, yeah. And, you know, and I’ve been sort of a, you know, seeking to embody that sort of that Pope like being right that people calling right be like I and not, not, you know, like, let’s not look at our current Pope or even the Catholic Church, but just that idea, right. You know, actually,

you know, I remember there’s a saying the very significant person in my lineage Who is very significant to my elders used to say,

you know, listen,

I understand your mistake, you thought you were in charge, but here the irisa is boss, right? And, and this notion that of like service to spirit at a level at which everybody else’s stuff becomes, in some way secondary, right, you know, that spirit dictates those things, you know? And, you know, and kind of that’s been moving both, you know, because I do have sort of two two lines. It’s my personal religious practice, which is very specific and very rarely crosses over into my professional life because, you know, it’s just a different track, right? Oh, okay. And then there’s my sort of professional magical practice, right, which, which comes from different things and different different places, but carries that same intensity of commitment to spirit. Right? So when people are like, you know, how are you doing? Like, well, my spirits say no, so, sorry, I got nothing for you. That’s it conversation. Cuz like, you know, I mean, I’m, I’m the CEO but they’re the stakeholders. They’re the ones who you know,

Unknown Speaker  

make Yeah, that’s right.

Andrew McGregor  

You know, it’s it’s an interesting dynamic, right? I’ve been, I’ve been very much sort of exploring this idea of sort of hope as servant to the world by complete dedication to spirit, you know, I love that.

Nancy  

Yeah, I do. And to me, I think anything that we repeat, I mean, to me, ritual is repetition. So anything we repeat gains power, you know, I mean, that’s bad habits, you know, I mean, those are, again, a lot of power. So, so if you did do the eight For me if I did do the inner smile every night or it, and to me, I keep thinking I should do the full out thing and I only do 20 minutes of it, but I do a real abbreviated version of it because it’s hard for me to actually get up to an hour, which is a goal of mine better. It’s kind of low. No, if I repeat it, it’s going to grow stronger and stronger. That sense of well being which I get after that meditation is just almost kind of unreal to me. It’s like wow, what you know, it’s, it’s just the I love the Dallas approach to the body and that’s pretty new to me. As soon as Trump got into office, I knew that I didn’t have enough self care tools. So that’s I started studying Dallas meditations and going to the studio and learning them. And boy, those Dallas are they have such an appreciation of the body unlike And it’s just amazing that each Oregon is its own spirit. It’s like, thank you, you know, and you want to be friends with each one because one of them’s going to kill you. Right? So if you’re good friends with them, maybe the death won’t be so bad, you know? And I’m like, Oh my god, that just makes sense. Sure. street smart.

Andrew McGregor  

Yeah, I think I think being on good terms with death is is a good idea. You know, for Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  

Right.

Andrew McGregor  

So, I’m looking over the list of questions here because there are quite a lot of questions. Yeah, some of the questions I think we should just do rapid fire.

Nancy  

Okay, let’s do it.

Andrew McGregor  

But I think that the one question that I think maybe we should just touch on in a not like, what’s your instant answer, right. Okay, is this question of how how do you use How can people use Tarot to magnetic Navigate a time that is both uncertain and monotonous. Right? You know, so I’m curious if you have ideas around.

Nancy  

Yeah. Well I did actually and we’ll, we’ll put it in the credits, but I did do a three, three hour, three hour long sessions with Jenna Matlin. And we did being boundaries in business. So literally even just reading in this time of quarantine, I gave you know, we gave ideas and resources about just how how to be kind to yourself but also how to stay neutral. I would say how do you use Taro? I again I would almost say always just get more creative, if it’s monotonous if your life is monotonous, that Taro if you could color it it you know, there’s coloring books now like Teresa reader. There’s all kinds of ways to experiment with Tarot so that you can let it feed you. Or write a haiku or a poem of one or just really go in the card and meditate do get go trippy, if it’s monotonous, go trippy. If your life is monotonous. Let Taro kind of bring you into some mythic journey.

Andrew McGregor  

Either car to dance. Oh,

Unknown Speaker  

yeah, come on

Nancy  

now. Oh my god, one of my favorite Tarot experiences I read for a woman’s horse who was really having a hard time and then we find out that the horse was taken away from its mother too soon, okay. And I had an old Morgan Greer, you know, a spare deck. So I took out the card that was, you know, to help the horse and I said just put it near its stall. Well she put it by its food bowl and it ate the card. And and it was great. afterwards she actually thought it was a card that I thought well why not? Just,

Andrew McGregor  

you know, it’s funny I, I buy Tarot practice. I occasionally have other questions, but my Tarot practice consists of one question just over and over and over again. Whenever whenever you go ahead,

Unknown Speaker  

what’s my purpose? No. Okay.

Andrew McGregor  

You got two more guesses. Who are my guides? No. Okay.

Nancy  

What would be okay, why am I here? What am I doing? who’s helping me? And then the other Well, the big one is like, Who will I? Who will I love?

Andrew McGregor  

Nope, no.

Nancy  

None of those things. Things

Andrew McGregor  

I love I love I already leave. I either know that, or I leave it up to exploration, you know. But, but the question that I asked is, what do I need to know in order to show up fully today? That’s the only question I ever asked on a regular basis.

Nancy  

No, I thought you meant what they ask you. Oh, no,

Andrew McGregor  

no, no, no. Oh, I asked the curse. Oh, totally, totally. My, my personal divination practice is, is, in a sense, intensely monotonous, because it’s always the same question. And that and then that process goes through a whole set of filters, you know? Yeah, speaking with my ancestors speaking with the cards. Sometimes it’s very poetic. Sometimes it’s very artistic. Sometimes is very literal. Just like, shut up and go for a walk, dude. You know?

Nancy  

Yeah.

Andrew McGregor  

And so for me, I think that this question of like, how do we how do we wrangle these times? To me, it’s the same as every other time. Of course, right remains the same. What do I need to do to show up fully? The answer might be radically different during a time like this, but the question remains the same, you know,

Nancy  

Oh, I love it. I love it. All right,

Andrew McGregor  

let’s hit these rapid fire ones for you. Right? Okay. Yes. All right. So these I think all come from survey so we’re going to truncate them because she asked a lot of why and I think that we’re going to leave the longer explanations up to people to interpret themselves but Okay, all right, you ready? First of all, I have a quick I have quick wise. So okay, you can be I actually wrote these

Nancy  

down.

Andrew McGregor  

So if there’s only one type of tree that you could hug for the rest of your life, which tree would it be?

Nancy  

And I would say it would be a Rowan tree. Any row entry because when I was in Scotland, the only time I opened myself up to divination in Scotland was when I held this row entry and it told me to remember that I was a White Witch. And so I’ve fallen in love with Rowan trees. Lovely. Yes.

Andrew McGregor  

So there’s only one image you could draw and chalk on the paper for the rest of your life. What would it be

Nancy  

mountains because they’re easy to draw

Andrew McGregor  

perfectly

Nancy  

off mountains and I love bring them wherever I go.

Andrew McGregor  

Which Major Arcana archetype which you fight alongside the battle

Nancy  

isn’t that a great question and I got the world card by are now on Nando’s lucky pack. And it’s like she’s like a free to Kala character sitting there with a little Charlie Chaplin about dictators. So it’s kind of against dinner. Tater ship, so I would join forces with her

Andrew McGregor  

freedom forever.

Nancy  

Yeah, yeah.

Andrew McGregor  

Um, if you were to lovingly devote yourself to only one tarot card for this year, which one would it be?

Nancy  

And his major minor and I said Wheel of Fortune because I just went into my wheel of fortune cycle. So I’m totally into it and I love journey into Egypt’s Wheel of Fortune because it’s the Zodiac of in, in Egypt and it’s as beautiful blue. So it feels great. And then the minor would be eight of swords from the Morgan Greer because I’m learning so much about how to undo that. So I should devote myself to it all year.

Andrew McGregor  

I like it.

Unknown Speaker  

Yeah.

Andrew McGregor  

Well, thank you for being on today. Literally. We’re where do people find you

Nancy  

at WWW dot Between worlds.us Yeah, Andrew, this has always been fun to talk to you. I so far have actually loved watching you grow into your priest though. It’s that’s. I can even feel it even if we don’t talk much I can feel you shifting.

Andrew McGregor  

Thank you.

Nancy  

Yeah, it’s an honor.

Andrew McGregor  

All right, well, nice chatting with you. All right, sweetie. Yeah. Go follow. Go follow along and yeah, check it that thing will. There’ll be links in the show for the gentleman’s crossover piece. Yeah.

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